Topic: Bogaczyk: Bowl or not, Snyder still could exit Marshall sidelines

[W0lfman]

Bowl or not, Snyder still could exit Marshall sidelines
Jack Bogaczyk column
by Jack Bogaczyk
Daily Mail Sports Editor

CHARLESTON, W.Va. - The handwriting is on the wall ... but is it Mike Hamrick's handwriting?

Marshall football Coach Mark Snyder hasn't lost his football team, but he has pretty much lost (long ago?) the rest of his constituency as the 6-5 Herd finishes the regular season Saturday at UTEP.

While the Herd may ...

http://www.dailymail.com/Sports/JackBogaczyk/200911260502

[mckayt]

"Can Hamrick do that? We'll see. Marshall should be careful what it wishes for, because Hamrick's two past head football coaching hires have been, to be charitable, just plain bad."

I've said this several times.  We can't handle a 3-20 or a 15-43.  This program will surely be officially dead at that point.  Very shortly, we'll see how it works out.  I just don't see us giving a guy five years to turn something around, suffering through four miserable seasons, and then finally when we potentially go 8-5 we fire him.  If we go 8-5, I would rather take the chance on what we have to produce a championship next year versus relying on a Mike Hamrick hire and rolling the dice.  Like it or not, we have been very competitive in every game we played except Virginia Tech.  Bogazyck makes many very good points though. 

[GreenSteve]

Bogaczyk is a pretty smart guy... I think the writing is on the wall. The only thing that worries me, and Jack points this out, is Hamricks dismal record of picking coaches.

We'll see. Good article.

GS.

[backontrack]

I feel right now the same way I did about Garrison's situation...the writing DID appear to be on the wall...but could the institution pull the trigger on Manchin's guy???...I look for the same thing to occur at MU...but I also can see a Dan Hawkins reprieve if we beat UTEP and end 7-5...

[thunderingon]

"Can Hamrick do that? We'll see. Marshall should be careful what it wishes for, because Hamrick's two past head football coaching hires have been, to be charitable, just plain bad."

I've said this several times.  We can't handle a 3-20 or a 15-43.  This program will surely be officially dead at that point.  Very shortly, we'll see how it works out.  I just don't see us giving a guy five years to turn something around, suffering through four miserable seasons, and then finally when we potentially go 8-5 we fire him.  If we go 8-5, I would rather take the chance on what we have to produce a championship next year versus relying on a Mike Hamrick hire and rolling the dice.  Like it or not, we have been very competitive in every game we played except Virginia Tech.  Bogazyck makes many very good points though. 

Agreed Mckayt.  The unknown worries me, as well as Hamrick's football coach hiring record.  It has been a very slow process, but we are just now competitive and winning games.  Next year looks to be even better.  Next year gives us our best chance yet to beat WVU.  One of the biggest issues with Snyder has been QB play.  Next year we return Anderson (a senior with experience) and AJ Graham, who looks to have a promising future.  Can we afford to bring someone in, lose players, and rebuild while someone puts in their "system?"  I have been on the proverbial fence with Snyder, but if we go 7-5 and go bowling, I am leaning in favor of keeping him.   Sure, I was expecting 9-3 or 8-4 at the worst, but this team had to learn how to win.  I am not ready for another rebuilding process.  

Furthermore...very good point with attendance.  MU fans are not showing up for anything right now.  We have yet to eclipse 5000 at any bball game that does have the excitement of an improving program, winning games and a quality coach.  WVU sold out the civic center against Citadel Tuesday night...let's see what MU does with Ohio tomorrow night.  I will be there and taking 3 with me, but I completely expect half or less than the attendance of the WVU game.

[herd_67]

"Can Hamrick do that? We'll see. Marshall should be careful what it wishes for, because Hamrick's two past head football coaching hires have been, to be charitable, just plain bad."

I've said this several times.  We can't handle a 3-20 or a 15-43.  This program will surely be officially dead at that point.  Very shortly, we'll see how it works out.  I just don't see us giving a guy five years to turn something around, suffering through four miserable seasons, and then finally when we potentially go 8-5 we fire him.  If we go 8-5, I would rather take the chance on what we have to produce a championship next year versus relying on a Mike Hamrick hire and rolling the dice.  Like it or not, we have been very competitive in every game we played except Virginia Tech.  Bogazyck makes many very good points though. 

+1        I feel he is gone but I hope Hamrick knocks it out of the park so to speak. If he doesn't we are toast. The foundation is set.

[biggreenarms]

Bogaczyk is a pretty smart guy... I think the writing is on the wall. The only thing that worries me, and Jack points this out, is Hamricks dismal record of picking coaches.

We'll see. Good article.

GS.

I agree. Depends on the funding that he can solicit if Snyder is let go. I'm sure there are some big donors that have stepped back in recent years that are waiting and watching how this unfolds.

[Thundering Lydia]

Furthermore...very good point with attendance.  MU fans are not showing up for anything right now.  We have yet to eclipse 5000 at any bball game that does have the excitement of an improving program, winning games and a quality coach.

I, too, thought that was a very valid point about basketball attendance.  However, I think that's a clear sign of sticking with a coach TOO long after fans have made their decision.

People are creatures of habit.  Once attending sporting events becomes part of your routine, you keep doing it . . . until something causes you to change that routine.  We stuck with Jirsa too long.  And once folks find something else to fill their routines, it's HARD to win them back.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think Coach Jones will continue to feel the consequences of keeping "the last guy" too long.  I hope we don't do the same to our next football coach.

[GreenSteve]

I, too, thought that was a very valid point about basketball attendance.  However, I think that's a clear sign of sticking with a coach TOO long after fans have made their decision.

People are creatures of habit.  Once attending sporting events becomes part of your routine, you keep doing it . . . until something causes you to change that routine.  We stuck with Jirsa too long.  And once folks find something else to fill their routines, it's HARD to win them back.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think Coach Jones will continue to feel the consequences of keeping "the last guy" too long.  I hope we don't do the same to our next football coach.

Agreed. We stuck with Jirsa too long and it drove the fans away for good.

We can't do that with football.

GS.

[thunderingon]

I, too, thought that was a very valid point about basketball attendance.  However, I think that's a clear sign of sticking with a coach TOO long after fans have made their decision.

People are creatures of habit.  Once attending sporting events becomes part of your routine, you keep doing it . . . until something causes you to change that routine.  We stuck with Jirsa too long.  And once folks find something else to fill their routines, it's HARD to win them back.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think Coach Jones will continue to feel the consequences of keeping "the last guy" too long.  I hope we don't do the same to our next football coach.

Convenient that the fans can always find someone else to blame... We have to do our part.  bottomline.

[guru shudu moonday]

hopefully hamrick learned what not to do from his past failures.

[whf]

My sons and I were talking last night about the risk involved in a change.  Like many of you have said, we realize the risk of staying with Snyder, but also acknowledge the success made in this season.  The wins have been over folks we should have  beat, and we could have beat the teams we have been waiting to beat.  

I think the "could" is the issue here.  If we could have, and didn't, then evaluation of why is necessary.  In all cases, regardless of the actual acts committed or omitted, the responsibility falls to the head coach.  

But that also applies to our last coach.  The Cincy bowl game was a debacle-period.  It was more of an embarrassment to me as a fan than any game we have lost since.  And leaving this program looking for a coach within days of a spring practice was even worse to me.

So we have risk without a change, big risk with bringing Pruett back (don't think that will happen) and risk with a change.  With that being said, I think Hamrick takes the risk of a new coach with no MU ties, a proven winner with experience runnign a football program AND winning games.

We will see.

[Thundering Lydia]

Convenient that the fans can always find someone else to blame... We have to do our part.  bottomline.

Simple economics.  You can't blame consumers for the Edsel's demise (though some would find that the most convenient excuse).

[mckayt]

"Agreed. We stuck with Jirsa too long and it drove the fans away for good.

We can't do that with football.

GS. "

Many keep saying that a new football coach is needed to regain the attendance though.  Not saying that you said that, but this theory would suggest that Marshall Football fans would already be driven away for good.  I think the truth is that there is still a lot of doubt concerning the basketball program.  The basketball team has yet to have a good finish under Coach Jones and the fans will not come back in droves until we have some championship seasons; some postseason appearances.  If we hire a new football coach, it will be the same way.  People will come in small numbers at first to see the new product, but will never come back in droves until we field a winner.  Winning truly does cure everything.  If we win two more games in football, you will see a change in attitudes around here too.  If this team finishes 8-5 plus the usual offseason hype that energizes the fans plus the fact that WVU is coming to Huntington next year, you will see plenty of people in the seats next year IF WE WIN.  If we beat WVU, which is very possible, plus field a winner against the conference foes we could set attendance records next year.  It's all about the Ws.
 

 

[Green Dog]

I liked Jacks article and agree with the majority of it.

I only know one thing for sure. This may sound a bit selfish or juvenile to some but.... right now is the most excited I've been concerning Marshall football in several years. The thoughts of making a change and getting back to MU style football has me grinning from ear to ear.

Make the change.

[Chevy1]

Simple economics.  You can't blame consumers for the Edsel's demise (though some would find that the most convenient excuse).

well said Lydia.  Some fans might feel it's their obligation to attend herd games - others may feel the school and team needs to earn those dollars.

Thought this was an excellent and objective article.  Great Job.

[Thunders]

Agreed Mckayt.  The unknown worries me, as well as Hamrick's football coach hiring record.  It has been a very slow process, but we are just now competitive and winning games.  Next year looks to be even better.  Next year gives us our best chance yet to beat WVU.  One of the biggest issues with Snyder has been QB play.  Next year we return Anderson (a senior with experience) and AJ Graham, who looks to have a promising future.  Can we afford to bring someone in, lose players, and rebuild while someone puts in their "system?"  I have been on the proverbial fence with Snyder, but if we go 7-5 and go bowling, I am leaning in favor of keeping him.   Sure, I was expecting 9-3 or 8-4 at the worst, but this team had to learn how to win.  I am not ready for another rebuilding process. 

Furthermore...very good point with attendance.  MU fans are not showing up for anything right now.  We have yet to eclipse 5000 at any bball game that does have the excitement of an improving program, winning games and a quality coach.  WVU sold out the civic center against Citadel Tuesday night...let's see what MU does with Ohio tomorrow night.  I will be there and taking 3 with me, but I completely expect half or less than the attendance of the WVU game.

I understand what you are saying but the next coach will not have to rebuild to the extent Snyder did. Snyder has brought in some good talent but he can't coach that talent to win close games that should have been won over the past 5 years.

You are wrong about being competitive until just this year. Look back at the multiple games under Snyder the last 5 years and see how many games against UCF, ECU, USM that we gave away by only a handful of points. We had many MANY chances to win those games and put ourselves in the CUSA champ game. But we didn't win and Snyder's coaching decisions were the main reasons for those losses. So, it's not that we haven't been competitive the whole time, it's just been that Snyder can't finish off those teams when it was on the line.

Look at his record against BCS teams as well. There were no wins and the only close game we played against a BCS school was his first against Kansas St. That again was a coaching flaw that we saw take place over and over again 5 years into his coaching career. We are still losing games on stupid play calls and lack of in game decision making. Nothing has changed except that our talent level has increased, which should make it an easier transition for the new coach to step in and possibly make us competitive from day one.

Marshall can't afford not to take this gamble and get a new coach. The talent is there. We just need a coach that can finish off. Snyder has never been able to do that. We could be one good coach away from multiple CUSA champ games and multiple bowls. Snyer had is chance and it is time for him to step down.

[Thunders]

I liked Jacks article and agree with the majority of it.

I only know one thing for sure. This may sound a bit selfish or juvenile to some but.... right now is the most excited I've been concerning Marshall football in several years. The thoughts of making a change and getting back to MU style football has me grinning from ear to ear.

Make the change.

Me too. I am finally getting that feeling back again and I hope this time it sticks around and we end up with a good coach that can finally get us over the hump. We have had way too many close games that we should have won had it not been for lack of coaching. In 5 years there are no excuses because we had plenty of chances to turn the corner and we always fell short. That goes on Snyder's shoulders.

[parshall2marshall]

Thanks Thunders and TL for trying to inject some sanity into this thread.

 8)


p2m

[mckayt]

Thanks Thunders and TL for trying to inject some sanity into this thread.

 8)


p2m

What was so insane about it before Thunders gave us his opinion about Coach Snyder again?

[svherd]

The biggest isue I would have in keeping Snyder is the fact that we will more then likely lose both our coordinators. With all of our kill people coming back except Cody, would Snyder choose someone that runs more of an open offense? Or will he continue to be rather conservastive and play it close to the vest. We have broken away from that mold the last 2 games. I'm not sure what he would do.
If he made the wrong hires and we continue to struggle, we wasted the most experienced team we've had since 2001 or so, skill wise.

The fans will start to show up when the teams start winning and the school can generate a ground swell of excitement. The poor performance and bad economy are the bigget factors in low attendance figures. MU is just like every other school in this regard. Some of you constantly criticize our fan base, thinking we are the only ones that suffer from this problem - thats (bleep), and not true by a long shot! Marshall must do its part to create some buzz and make fans want to attend a game or two. So far they haven't done that, not even close.

[HerdEcon]

Maybe Hamrick's 3rd attempt at replacing a Head football coach will be the charm.  Use a respected recruiting agent.  Get some quality candidates and just do it.  One big problem Hamrick will have is the limited resources at Marshall. 

[banker]

I have been trying to look at this more objectively of late.  We have a pretty good football team right now and when you look at what is coming back you have to think we can be better next year.  On offense we have all our RBs back, all our WRs back plus Evans+Rynes+Crawford, Smith and Hatten at TE, and the majority of our Oline plus those 5 guys we have redshirting this year. On defense we lose two starters out of the front 7 and only one out of the D-backfield.  I like our young talent on both sides of the ball.  Like it or not the credit for that has to go to Snyder.

If we change coaches now, even with the elevated talent, chances are next year will not be good.  Think of how USM started last year.  They had an experienced talented team, more talented and experienced then we will be starting next year, but they started slow then jelled the last half of the year and this year they are only one game better than us in the standings.  Bower could have probably had them in the exact same place.  We also risk having some of that young talent leave, something else that has to be considered.

We lost to ECU by 4, UCF by 1 and USM by 7.  Yes we did lose, but all three of those game could have gone either way.  ECU loses if they don't have the WR laying on his back catch.  UCF loses if Anderson doesn't fumble.  It's the first time we played all three of those teams close in the same season.  Likewise, we beat every team we should have definately beat this year.  That's the first time we have done that under Snyder.  I think this means that next year we will have a team that truly expects to win instead of wants to/hopes to win.

The Snyder flipside is that I think we are still too undisiplined as a team, too many penalties, and appear unprepared for certain game situations (like two-minute offense, defense against the two-minute offense).  He still plays too conservative with a lead inthe second half, although he didn't against SMU.  You also have the fact that a lot of the fan base has no love for him and the resulting financial impact.

Bottom line, if I were Hamrick I wouldn't have made a decision yet but I would make one on Sunday.  I would be leaning toward keeping him for one more year based on where we stand today versus where we stood at the end of 2007 because I look at the first couple years as new coach learning curve years.

[guru shudu moonday]

   "It was telling to me when Hamrick scheduled Louisville for a home-and-home, and he told me his philosophy was playing two BCS non-conference foes annually, with one in Huntington. I told him Snyder had earlier told me his philosophy was one BCS foe a year.

                  Hamrick's response? "I know," he said."

this statement may be the most "telling"  statement to come out about the whole mess.

[Herd-nficent]

If some of you all don't trust Hamrick to pick the next coach, do you trust Kopp??? ::) ::) ::)