Topic: So, do we still want to get rid of Doc?

[HoPPy785]

I can see the argument to keep him due to financial strain from covid, but I have to ask, how many of you saying extend would have said that at the end of last season. In the midst of the Litton collapse would you have extended? 1 year doesn't erase the past, especially a wonky covid year.

Doc gets credit for a good season but he also gets credit for 8 or so mediocre to poor seasons.

[Big City]

I thought the rule with QBs and Head Coaches was all the blame or all the fame?  Doc just gets the blame, I guess. 

He built this team!  He hired these coaches.  He’s not winning with other coaches players?  He built this defense.  Which is one of the top 5 best defensive units in the history of Marshall Football, IMO.

You cannot give this team respect for what it is doing without giving Doc the same respect. 

The fact that anyone google search and find this thread and read it, is very embarrassing, honestly.  I hope our players and recruits don’t read this.

Lol. I dont think student athletes, recruits and their families are basing their decision off of message board banter. You can find topics like this or dumber topics on every message board out there.

[herdfan93]

Chad has said repeatedly that he wants to coach HS. He could of course change his mind. I see no possible way that Byron would want to take a huge step back in a number of ways to coach at a G5 moderate paying school. Within the next couple of years he will be in a multi million dollar NFL head coaching job. In fact I feel certain that he is making double or triple as an OC of what Doc is getting here

I read somewhere that Leftwich has already made about $30 mil since he entered the league.

[Herdmeister]

I read somewhere that Leftwich has already made about $30 mil since he entered the league.

Yes, as a player

[puma]

Lol. I dont think student athletes, recruits and their families are basing their decision off of message board banter. You can find topics like this or dumber topics on every message board out there.

Even Ohio State and Alabama have fans venting online and complaining about stuff. Every fan base does that.

At our level, I think recruits would just be impressed that Marshall has such a big online presence, both in sport's boards, and social media. I can't even count the number of times I googled an opponent, went to one of their boards, and found that the last post was from 2017 or something. That's probably 75% of C-USA, if not the G5 as a whole.

[MUinDE]

https://twitter.com/TheHerdAD/status/1329136644419629060?s=20

This says it all.

Can we all be honest about all this chest pumping for a minute. This year will go down in the annals of college football with a big asterisk next to it. "2020* the year covid hamstrung all of college football." There is little doubt in my mind had covid not hit this year, and all of the Big Ten, Pac 12, etc. played from the beginning of the year, Marshall may be in the Top 25 right now, but just barely. Heck, there is very good chance had we played our normal schedule, we wouldn't be undefeated. I'm not poo-pooing the season, but let's be honest with ourselves.

In addition, I give Doc credit for hiring Lambert and Cramsey, but I also give him credit for hiring Rippon and Legg. I give Doc credit for Wells, but I also give him credit for Green, Antwon Chisholm, Fred Pickett and Mike Fleurizard all the way through to Steward Butler, Angelo Jean-Louis and Tiquan Lang to one of the highest attrition rates in college football for several years running.

Doc is 85-51 overall (which includes the 7-0 this year). This in a much watered down conference. There is no doubt that the previous iteration of the conference was much tougher. You can ignore this fact if you like, but Doc has coached almost his entire tenure against a collection of teams that are far inferior than to the previous conference lineup. And, he has always found a way to lose a game to a team that he shouldn't have lost to, the present year so far the exception ... So far. 

I and many others have been pointing out these serious shortcomings for years. Going 7-0 in 2020* doesn't change any of these shortcomings. Sure, it placates a few in the fan base, but it hasn't done, and will not do, enough to placate the vast majority of the fans.

[DC01HERD]

WKU, MTSU, FAU, FIU, ODU, and Charlotte have embarrassing home football crowds. We should win CUSA east 8/10 years.

[Always THE HERD]

Time to cut the cord (and has been for 2-4 years).

[Johnnyherd]

Can we all be honest about all this chest pumping for a minute. This year will go down in the annals of college football with a big asterisk next to it. "2020* the year covid hamstrung all of college football." There is little doubt in my mind had covid not hit this year, and all of the Big Ten, Pac 12, etc. played from the beginning of the year, Marshall may be in the Top 25 right now, but just barely. Heck, there is very good chance had we played our normal schedule, we wouldn't be undefeated. I'm not poo-pooing the season, but let's be honest with ourselves.

In addition, I give Doc credit for hiring Lambert and Cramsey, but I also give him credit for hiring Rippon and Legg. I give Doc credit for Wells, but I also give him credit for Green, Antwon Chisholm, Fred Pickett and Mike Fleurizard all the way through to Steward Butler, Angelo Jean-Louis and Tiquan Lang to one of the highest attrition rates in college football for several years running.

Doc is 85-51 overall (which includes the 7-0 this year). This in a much watered down conference. There is no doubt that the previous iteration of the conference was much tougher. You can ignore this fact if you like, but Doc has coached almost his entire tenure against a collection of teams that are far inferior than to the previous conference lineup. And, he has always found a way to lose a game to a team that he shouldn't have lost to, the present year so far the exception ... So far. 

I and many others have been pointing out these serious shortcomings for years. Going 7-0 in 2020* doesn't change any of these shortcomings. Sure, it placates a few in the fan base, but it hasn't done, and will not do, enough to placate the vast majority of the fans.

Pruett and Donnan both had their share of %^&*heads that got booted and embarrassed us.  In fact about every D-1 school boots players on a regular basis, if they don’t boot them for drugs, violence, theft they boot them for taking cash or academic cheating.

I get that this group is the grass is greener type.

What program Marshall’s size has done better? 

I have heard people say Western Kentucky has the system we need, hire the top up and coming coach and flip coaches every 3 years, look at Western now?  That system works like this hot shot coach comes in wins 10+ a couple years, leaves takes his top players with him, new guy comes in wins with left overs, for a couple years starts losing control of the program, leaves for the NFL or coordinator at a P5 and we spend a decade bring average below average trying different coaches.

I heard and Frank Martin and Frank solich being better coaches they can’t keep a program winning and win the big games.  Butch Jones was a bust. 

Honestly the worst thing you can do for a program is fire, or run off, a seasoned head coach that has built a program over years.  See Michigan, Tennessee, Texas, Florida State.   Firing a head coach in general is very bad.  It means your football program failed.  The best players leave, especially now with the transfer portal. 

I know some of you will dispute that but I can think of 10 schools that fired coaches that are still trying to get back to normal 5, 6, 7, 10 years later.

It’s a package deal, you can’t love this defense, this O line, Wells, Knox and company and not support the Coaches.

Please tell me a program Marshall’s size (2nd smallest school D-1) that has done better?  I m curious what G5 program is a model for our success?  We are generally looked up
to as the model for many G5 schools.

[DC01HERD]

I would say in WKU's case their football fan support is weak. In the 2015 game against Marshall, did they even have 15,000 people for that game? That was a good team with a couple of NFL players and their stadium was half empty. MU has much better fan support.

MU needs to grow student enrollment. That has been a 20 year broken record.

[Herdmeister]

I would say in WKU's case their football fan support is weak. In the 2015 game against Marshall, did they even have 15,000 people for that game? That was a good team with a couple of NFL players and their stadium was half empty. MU has much better fan support.

MU needs to grow student enrollment. That has been a 20 year broken record.

No doubt, they along with ODU, UTEP and Charlotte are basketball first schools

[puma]

What is a reasonable number of division titles and championships we should expect from a Marshall coach? There are 14 teams in C-USA and 7 in the East division, so at the very, rock bottom, bare minimum, a coach should have two division titles and a championship every 14 years.

And that's pretty much where Doc was heading into this season. That's why fans are so frustrated in general. If this season ends like how it's shaping up to, with another championship, that'll be three division titles and two championships in 11 years and we'll finally be tied with FAU and WKU.

Obviously, Doc won't and shouldn't be fired this season. That's ludicrous. Give him a 2 year extension and see if the tide really has changed.

[herdorbust]

What is a reasonable number of division titles and championships we should expect from a Marshall coach? There are 14 teams in C-USA and 7 in the East division, so at the very, rock bottom, bare minimum, a coach should have two division titles and a championship every 14 years.

And that's pretty much where Doc was heading into this season. That's why fans are so frustrated in general. If this season ends like how it's shaping up to, with another championship, that'll be three division titles and two championships in 11 years and we'll finally be tied with FAU and WKU.

Obviously, Doc won't and shouldn't be fired this season. That's ludicrous. Give him a 2 year extension and see if the tide really has changed.

And 2 teams in the east didn’t even have a football team a few years ago Charlotte and ODU. Fiu and Fau were doormats for most of those years. We should have dominated the East. It’s not been a stellar achievement by Doc at all. And this year the conference has hit rock bottom. WKU is now beyond horrible and FAU has went backwards after losing Kiffen. It’s not can we win this conference in football. It’s how could we not win it.

[elginherd]

Pretty good discussion. Here are the points that I see that should be considered from those raised on this thread:

1) BP was arguably the best coach in Marshall history. But he did arrive on the rising tide started by Jim Donnan and added one of the top 3 WRs ever to play FB and an QB with an NFL arm. He inherited Chad. People forget that things were starting to unravel by the time BP walked away.

2) Donnan was arguably the best coach in Marshall history. He also arrived on a rising tide, that was started by George Chaump. He might have been the best recruiter ever also. His last team, led by a noodled-armed true freshman CP, should have beaten a Montana team led by one of the best QBs in CFL (& 1-AA) FB.

3) Chaump was great also. Lost to a NE La team on a horrible fumble call. They were led by an NFL QB while the Herd had a great college QB.

-Those are the successful FB coaches in the modern era in terms of wins before Doc. Should & could have Marshall have a couple more CUSA titles during his tenure? Yes.

-Have his teams usually been in the conversation as one of the favorites? No, before the AAC was formed. Yes, ever since.

-Has Marshall been slapped with an NCAA penalties during Doc's time? No...and that is an important factor. G5's have to be on their P & Q's more so than the famous P5's. It literally takes the sodemy of a child for one of the upper P5's to be very seriously punished.

-Academically, the Herd has been good.

So to me it appears that Doc has not been a great coach, but he has been a good coach. He's good at sustaining a viable lower level G5 program despite being out-resourced by some of the CUSA competition in terms of budgets.

Game management has been an issue. One of my pet peaves is that he hasn't intervened in the 3rd & 4th one offense. There are situations where a direct snap is much better than playing the entire game with shotgun snaps.

Fan interest has definitely declined. Part of that IS the style of play during Doc's area and the Snyder era. A lot of it has to do with the deteriorating demographics in the area. Younger people don't tend to be as interested in sports either.

The problem with replacing Doc is the downside is potentially catastophic. If the replacement isn't a homerun, then fan & donor support craters. And as long as the Herd is in this CUSA, the upside is only some extremely improbable shots at a NY6 bowl. And, maybe, a few more championships before the next guy comes in.
 

[puma]

And 2 teams in the east didn’t even have a football team a few years ago Charlotte and ODU. Fiu and Fau were doormats for most of those years. We should have dominated the East. It’s not been a stellar achievement by Doc at all. And this year the conference has hit rock bottom. WKU is now beyond horrible and FAU has went backwards after losing Kiffen. It’s not can we win this conference in football. It’s how could we not win it.

I 100% agree with the sentiment. There are 7 teams in the East; of which, maybe 3 that have at some point been respectable mid-major programs (Marshall, FAU, and WKU) during Doc's tenure. I'd expect a good coach to win the division 3 or 4 times at this point. I'm definitely not defending Doc. I'm just saying he can't reasonably be fired if he goes undefeated and finishes the season in the AP top 10.

[herd1986]

I thought the rule with QBs and Head Coaches was all the blame or all the fame?  Doc just gets the blame, I guess. 

He built this team!  He hired these coaches.  He’s not winning with other coaches players?  He built this defense.  Which is one of the top 5 best defensive units in the history of Marshall Football, IMO.

You cannot give this team respect for what it is doing without giving Doc the same respect. 

The fact that anyone google search and find this thread and read it, is very embarrassing, honestly.  I hope our players and recruits don’t read this.

He punted on the 30 yard line.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MicDrass1]

Could Shepherd win CUSA is the ?

[herdorbust]

I 100% agree with the sentiment. There are 7 teams in the East; of which, maybe 3 that have at some point been respectable mid-major programs (Marshall, FAU, and WKU) during Doc's tenure. I'd expect a good coach to win the division 3 or 4 times at this point. I'm definitely not defending Doc. I'm just saying he can't reasonably be fired if he goes undefeated and finishes the season in the AP top 10.

True about being fired after this year. My point is he has failed miserably since he has been here. Winning just the East division twice since he has been here is scary. The East is a clown show division with start up teams and really only one team that has ever showed a heart beat WKU. Except 2-3 years of Kiffen and FAU that has been it. And thankfully this year those 2 have crashed and burned. We have zero idea how good we are this year. We beat one of Appy st worst team in years and then EKU and UMASS that are not even good high school teams and then our conference foes that seem to have all collapsed this year at the same time. It’s a real shame that we probably won’t get one game (even bowls are in doubt) against a true quality opponent this year.

[Johnnyherd]

He punted from the 30 yard line

Ha ha, it wasn’t the 30, was it?  I thought it was like the 37.

I mean Doc just might know we have a weak legged kicker and a tough defense.  I’m sure he hoped to pin them inside the 5-10 yard line and have the defense pin their ears back and go after them.  It didn’t work out that way.

[Johnnyherd]

Pretty good discussion. Here are the points that I see that should be considered from those raised on this thread:

1) BP was arguably the best coach in Marshall history. But he did arrive on the rising tide started by Jim Donnan and added one of the top 3 WRs ever to play FB and an QB with an NFL arm. He inherited Chad. People forget that things were starting to unravel by the time BP walked away.

2) Donnan was arguably the best coach in Marshall history. He also arrived on a rising tide, that was started by George Chaump. He might have been the best recruiter ever also. His last team, led by a noodled-armed true freshman CP, should have beaten a Montana team led by one of the best QBs in CFL (& 1-AA) FB.

3) Chaump was great also. Lost to a NE La team on a horrible fumble call. They were led by an NFL QB while the Herd had a great college QB.

-Those are the successful FB coaches in the modern era in terms of wins before Doc. Should & could have Marshall have a couple more CUSA titles during his tenure? Yes.

-Have his teams usually been in the conversation as one of the favorites? No, before the AAC was formed. Yes, ever since.

-Has Marshall been slapped with an NCAA penalties during Doc's time? No...and that is an important factor. G5's have to be on their P & Q's more so than the famous P5's. It literally takes the sodemy of a child for one of the upper P5's to be very seriously punished.

-Academically, the Herd has been good.

So to me it appears that Doc has not been a great coach, but he has been a good coach. He's good at sustaining a viable lower level G5 program despite being out-resourced by some of the CUSA competition in terms of budgets.

Game management has been an issue. One of my pet peaves is that he hasn't intervened in the 3rd & 4th one offense. There are situations where a direct snap is much better than playing the entire game with shotgun snaps.

Fan interest has definitely declined. Part of that IS the style of play during Doc's area and the Snyder era. A lot of it has to do with the deteriorating demographics in the area. Younger people don't tend to be as interested in sports either.

The problem with replacing Doc is the downside is potentially catastophic. If the replacement isn't a homerun, then fan & donor support craters. And as long as the Herd is in this CUSA, the upside is only some extremely improbable shots at a NY6 bowl. And, maybe, a few more championships before the next guy comes in.

Well spoken, great points!

I would add in comparing coaches.

We were a BIG fish in a small pond in 1AA.  We had the biggest stadium, the most fans and probably the top 5 budget comparing us to the 1-AA.  We were basically a D-1 school, playing 15 games against 1-AA at the end of Donnan beginning of Pruett. We were big enough to dictate teams come to our stadium.

Randy Moss was a fluke.  He was a 3rd chance, who had no intention of ever going to Marshall. He has fell into our lap because we were an hour away from his home town and he could transfer from D-1 to 1-AA without sitting out and we were going D-1 the following year. Pure happenstance.

Also the fact that we could get D-1transfers with no sit out helped JD & BP, because when a D-1 guy got booted or left on his own there were about 4-5 IAa teams they went to and we were 1.  Now you see players go D1 to D1 with no sit out year.

The Grey shirt rule was HUGE in the success of JD and BP.  It allowed us to get top shelf athletes that were going to major D1 schools but didn’t has the ACT entrance exam. 

BP and JD were paying players $50 an hour at a no show job at Champion sports and a couple other things that allegedly helped them academically.

So it’s not exactly apples to apples comparing our last 4 coaches,

[herdfifteen]

. Johnnyherd. What a great summation, you certainly know the history of Marshall football well! Thanks!

[MicDrass1]

Big key to Herd success will be continuing its NQ system and striking gold with Jucos.  This affords time for 2-3 star Hs players to develop.  Marshall needs to continue mixing together these systems.

[Johnnyherd]

Big key to Herd success will be continuing its NQ system and striking gold with Jucos.  This affords time for 2-3 star Hs players to develop.  Marshall needs to continue mixing together these systems.

Very true

The HELP program is instrumental as well.

[MicDrass1]

Juco freshman this year could play, RS soph year in juco and transfer with (4) years to play. 
Juco Soph could not played freshman year, played this year and have (4) years to play.  Herd needs to get about (5) juco studs.

[elginherd]

Well spoken, great points!

I would add in comparing coaches.

We were a BIG fish in a small pond in 1AA.  We had the biggest stadium, the most fans and probably the top 5 budget comparing us to the 1-AA.  We were basically a D-1 school, playing 15 games against 1-AA at the end of Donnan beginning of Pruett. We were big enough to dictate teams come to our stadium.

Randy Moss was a fluke.  He was a 3rd chance, who had no intention of ever going to Marshall. He has fell into our lap because we were an hour away from his home town and he could transfer from D-1 to 1-AA without sitting out and we were going D-1 the following year. Pure happenstance.

Also the fact that we could get D-1transfers with no sit out helped JD & BP, because when a D-1 guy got booted or left on his own there were about 4-5 IAa teams they went to and we were 1.  Now you see players go D1 to D1 with no sit out year.

The Grey shirt rule was HUGE in the success of JD and BP.  It allowed us to get top shelf athletes that were going to major D1 schools but didn’t has the ACT entrance exam. 

BP and JD were paying players $50 an hour at a no show job at Champion sports and a couple other things that allegedly helped them academically.

So it’s not exactly apples to apples comparing our last 4 coaches,

Yeah, the no-work, no-show jobs were probably a factor. But I didn't want to bring that up.

I agree that Kresser & Moss falling into the Herd laps were unlikely discrepant events.