Topic: SOS and Performance

[Garbanjo]

One very serious question...

What benefit is gained by a school and its fans to continually run down its own home when there are no other houses to move to in order to build a new home?

Fair point

My response: we should be the class of CUSA, the Alabama of this conference every year. If not, move back to FCS and put our $$$$ into BBall

[ThunderValley]

One very serious question...

What benefit is gained by a school and its fans to continually run down its own home when there are no other houses to move to in order to build a new home?

Taxpayers and fans pay the salaries. By doing this you expect to get the very best from the employee. If an employee cannot produce, get some one who will.
 If your home is cold, insulate it.

[Herdalum83]

Correct, we should only have one loss.  But the consistant bitching about this being coaching issues is rediculous.  7 turnovers, read it again, 7 turnovers...by the QB.  When the heck will folks realize what that means to a team's win/loss record.

And for goodness sake, folks bitch about Legg all the time.  Both unexpected (unacceptable in my opinion) losses were the result of our DEFENSE not being able to stop either team on their first drives, then either team immediately after a turnover.

Our schedule isn't an issue unless one wants to make it so.  That's all I'm saying.  We play who we play, and we will forever.  How this discussion got back to Doc and Legg being bad coaches is truly beyond me.  I give..........

First off, it's Ridiculous. Second off, I blame Legg at least some for Litton's six interceptions in those two games simply because He hasn't developed Litton, when a kid is making the same fundamental mistakes in year three as a starter that he made as a freshman then some of that is on coaching. Thirdly, did you just blame our defense for losing those two games?? Our defense is the only reason why either of those games ended up with us having a remote chance of winning them.

Our defense did play it's worst game of the season against FIU that's true, but even then they still played good enough for us to win. The offense literally handed FIU 14 points. 7 of those 14 points were scored with our defense on the sidelines and the other 7 came off a 19-yard drive. You can't pin a 19-yard drive on the defense you just can't.

Also, our defense played pretty well against FAU. If Litton doesn't turn it over 4 times FAU scores 17 points instead of 30 and we score at least 40 points instead of 25 because the Owls defense didn't stop our offense a single time. Every drive we came up empty on was a drive in which we stopped ourselves, either with turnovers, penalties or missed FGs.

You can blame the players on the field for not executing until your blue in the face but it doesn't make you right. Want to know why? Because WELL COACHED, GOOD FOOTBALL TEAMS EXECUTE!

Well coached teams do not have the same issues year in and year out with poor execution and undisciplined penalties only poorly coached teams do. That's not to say well-coached teams don't get out-executed from time to time (usually when they are out athleted) or that players on well-coached teams don't miss assignments. What it is saying though is that well-coached teams do not game in and game out, year after year lose games they should win because of execution issues.

[GreenWhite]

Correct, we should only have one loss.  But the consistant bitching about this being coaching issues is rediculous.  7 turnovers, read it again, 7 turnovers...by the QB.  When the heck will folks realize what that means to a team's win/loss record.

I guess the question needs to be asked why wasn't the QB removed from those games? According to many, we don't have a suitable backup. That falls on the coaching staff.

[bluedevilherd]

You guys are missing the fact that this applies to almost every team...most teams wins come against teams with losing records...that doesn’t matter if it is MU or Ohio State...strength of schedule plays into every teams record.

Wondering if you have the stats to back up that statement...

[whf]

There was no influence from anyone other than the defense for the first drives and scores in either the FIU or FAU games.  Fire Heater, he didn't have them ready, was responsible for not making the plays on the field, and anything else you can think of.  Both teams had drives of over 65 yards right off the bat to score.  Both ran right over our defensive players, LBs taking bad routes to the running backs, DBs missing tackles, Dline being blown all the way from the LOS into the defensive blackfield.

There is nothing rediculous about observing and mentioning this.  Only thing rediculous IMHO is to always blame the Offensive Coordinator for our woes when accountability is really shared across the entire program.  If you honestly don't think our offensive scheme is highly partially built to keep our defense off the field I think you are hiding your head in the sand.  A desire to control the Time of Possession isn't an offensive scheme, its a defensive philosophy employeed by the offense.  Our defense is absolutely best when on the bench.

[herdfan129]

One very serious question...

What benefit is gained by a school and its fans to continually run down its own home when there are no other houses to move to in order to build a new home?

That's what I would like to know. You run down our school and program every time you try and pretend that our football program as good as it could possibly be.

[herdfan129]

There was no influence from anyone other than the defense for the first drives and scores in either the FIU or FAU games.  Fire Heater, he didn't have them ready, was responsible for not making the plays on the field, and anything else you can think of.  Both teams had drives of over 65 yards right off the bat to score.  Both ran right over our defensive players, LBs taking bad routes to the running backs, DBs missing tackles, Dline being blown all the way from the LOS into the defensive blackfield.

There is nothing rediculous about observing and mentioning this.  Only thing rediculous IMHO is to always blame the Offensive Coordinator for our woes when accountability is really shared across the entire program.  If you honestly don't think our offensive scheme is highly partially built to keep our defense off the field I think you are hiding your head in the sand.  A desire to control the Time of Possession isn't an offensive scheme, its a defensive philosophy employeed by the offense.  Our defense is absolutely best when on the bench.

This post just proved my suspicions. You are just a troll. Everyone should just ignore this goon until he goes away.

[Herdalum83]

There was no influence from anyone other than the defense for the first drives and scores in either the FIU or FAU games.  Fire Heater, he didn't have them ready, was responsible for not making the plays on the field, and anything else you can think of.  Both teams had drives of over 65 yards right off the bat to score.  Both ran right over our defensive players, LBs taking bad routes to the running backs, DBs missing tackles, Dline being blown all the way from the LOS into the defensive blackfield.

There is nothing rediculous about observing and mentioning this.  Only thing rediculous IMHO is to always blame the Offensive Coordinator for our woes when accountability is really shared across the entire program.  If you honestly don't think our offensive scheme is highly partially built to keep our defense off the field I think you are hiding your head in the sand.  A desire to control the Time of Possession isn't an offensive scheme, its a defensive philosophy employeed by the offense.  Our defense is absolutely best when on the bench.

Again the word is RIDICULOUS. It's spelled with an i not an e. And you're right both teams came out and scored on their opening possessions and then Heater did what good coaches do and made adjustments. Legg never adjusts to anything. Yes, controlling the clock is part of the offensive scheme and it is the part of almost EVERY teams offensive scheme except for the teams like Washington State who have no desire to do anything but outscore you. They want every game to be a track meet, they don't mind if their defense gives up 50 because they think their offense can get 60. It's also why Mike Leech will never win anything significant.

Also, newsflash, every teams' defense, even Alabama's is best when they are on the bench. Other teams can't score if they don't have the ball, plus a well-rested defense is always better than a gassed defense. Last season our defense was bad, but it was made even worse by our offenses ability to get first downs, putting a tired defense back on the field. Tired and bad isn't a good combo. But, pretty good and tired isn't either, that's why our offense needs to sustain drives. I don't know what point you were trying to make honestly by stating our offense wants to win time of possession and keep our defense fresh. Like duh?

And again, Heater isn't the best DC in the country but he's been solid in my opinion and I see no way, no how anyone who knows anything about the game of football can blame his defense for the losses against FIU and FAU. They missed plays true, but if the offense just takes care of the ball we win both of those games. FIU was the worst game the D played all year, but they still played good enough to win. Throughout the season the defense has picked up and carried the offense when it sputtered, couldn't move the ball or couldn't finish drives with points. The one game, the FIU game, that the defense needed the offense to pick it up and carry it a little, the offense piled on to the defenses struggles.

[Apollo]

This post just proved my suspicions. You are just a troll. Everyone should just ignore this goon until he goes away.

That's what I've decided as well. Hit the mental ignore button.

[whf]

I'm guilty, ridiculous, not ridiculous. Sorry I missed that misspelling.  Glad you caught it.

Those of you who think I'm a troll must be relatively new. Sorry I'm not, I'd sure be gone if I were.

Apparently you've not been reading here very long yourselves.

[Herdalum83]

I'm guilty, ridiculous, not ridiculous. Sorry I missed that misspelling.  Glad you caught it.

Those of you who think I'm a troll must be relatively new. Sorry I'm not, I'd sure be gone if I were.

Apparently you've not been reading here very long yourselves.

I don't think you're a Troll. I just think you're wrong on this issue.

[Big City]

I know whf pretty well. He is a great man and as big of a Herd fan as any of us. I can assure you he is not a troll and personally supports the athletic dept in various forms.

One thing we can all agree on is we want Marshall athletics to succeed. We ALL want the best for Marshall. We may not agree on everything and each one of us share a unique vision. We all bring different backgrounds, experience and perspective to the board. This is one of the many great things about this forum; we all have our opinions on the football program, Hamrick, coaches and players. This is a great place to discuss and air our frustrations and at times celebrate together.

GO HERD EVERYBODY!

[Garbanjo]

I know whf pretty well. He is a great man and as big of a Herd fan as any of us. I can assure you he is not a troll and personally supports the athletic dept in various forms.

One thing we can all agree on is we want Marshall athletics to succeed. We ALL want the best for Marshall. We may not agree on everything and each one of us share a unique vision. We all bring different backgrounds, experience and perspective to the board. This is one of the many great things about this forum; we all have our opinions on the football program, Hamrick, coaches and players. This is a great place to discuss and air our frustrations and at times celebrate together.

GO HERD EVERYBODY!

whf is far from a troll. I don't know him personally, but he has always been a great poster even when we disagree

[herdfan129]

Since whf isn't a troll I will continue to give some time to this discussion.

whf, do you think our program, in its current state, is doing as good as it possibly can under the current leadership?

[whf]

Here's what I think:
1.  Winning is more important than anything else this year for the future of MU football.
2.  How that get's done isn't even second; developing players for the future is.
3.  It really sucks that we experienced such a departure rate. I honestly don't know who was at fault; but it is my impression that the kids who left didn't fit in.
4.  CJ Revias is an example of what happens when you're challenged by incoming better talent. He could have left too, but he didn't and now he is starting again. He must have buckled down; don't know the facts.
5.  It's much easier to blame a coach than a player, I get that.  Chase Litton hasn't "EVER" looked like the kind of QBs that are really successful at MU. I blame the recruiting process on this, and yes, I put the acceptance of his coming here and being given such an important role on Bill Legg.  However, I also place a lot of that blame on the recuriters who aren't here any more.
6.  We are in conference C-USA. No one hates that worse than me.  If you didn't catch that, please re-read the last sentence.  While that is true, we are where we are and I'm not going to worsen the condition by making it sound like the conference sucks, the other teams suck, their universities suck, and we are doomed.  I'm nore like "let's keep getting better and making the conference better because this is where we're going to be for a long time".  Rip up your own home if you'd like, I won't participate in it.  C-USA is what it is; other than distance I still like it better than the MAC and SunBelt.
7.  Anyone who calls me a Hamrick apologist doesn't know me at all. Go back and read my historic posts on how he approaches a big portion of the fan base population.  Yet I see no sense in pushing the issue and magnifying the shortcoming. I also know Dr. Gilbert and I can assure you he will make the appropriate decisions for MU.  Even if I'd like to see a change to someone more personable, I can't begin to know if that would be a good choice when 100% performance against the job description is evaluated. I just don't know enough about the budgeting, meeting expectations within resources, etc.  Wish I did, but I don't.
8.  Lastly, I delete my HerdFans Icon at least once a week, promising myself I'll stay away. I do that because I am sick and tired of folks who used to be so supportive being complicit in contributing to our downward slide.  Stallwards are needed right now more than anything else.  Boycotts and bitching don't get it done IMHO.

Thanks for asking...

[The E-Man]

Lastly, I delete my HerdFans Icon at least once a week, promising myself I'll stay away. I do that because I am sick and tired of folks who used to be so supportive being complicit in contributing to our downward slide.  Stallwards are needed right now more than anything else.  Boycotts and bitching don't get it done IMHO.

Thanks for asking...

Those folks you're talking about to our downward slide are Doc Holliday and Mike Hamrick. You're blaming the wrong people when you blame Herd fans.

[herdorbust]

Are you all still arguing over football? Its basketball season for me.

[Herdalum83]

There has to be a place for honesty though. It isn't tearing down your house to call it what it is. If you live in a a shack you can't call it a Mansion and just hope that'll suddenly turn into one and calling it what it is, a shack, doesn't suddenly make you're home collapse either.

[whf]

E, I said also complicit. I stick to it. That's the way I feel, you feel differently.  Anyone can come to the games or stay home, if you stay home  IMHO you're complicit in the image of low attendance and lack of support.  Fact is, none of us will ever be the AD, or a football coach (could be wrong, maybe someone here is in the profession) at MU, but we can always be supporters.  Look at it like this, image always overpowers reality.  We can all stay positive in helping create the image.  That's how I feel.

[whf]

Thinking and feeling are one thing. Declaring things to be so is another.  Declaring MU's AD to be stupid, dumb, etc. isn't the same as saying that one feels he sucks.  Saying Doc is stupid, can't recruit, makes bad decisions, etc. is a lot different that saying you feel or think he does.  We just don't know. 

You can feel our progam is a shack, but to declare it is is another thing. 

Wholehearted agree that we're here for sharing honest thoughts.

[herdfan129]

Here's what I think:
1.  Winning is more important than anything else this year for the future of MU football.
Agree
2.  How that get's done isn't even second; developing players for the future is.
Agree
3.  It really sucks that we experienced such a departure rate. I honestly don't know who was at fault; but it is my impression that the kids who left didn't fit in.
What do you mean you don't know who is at fault? Doc has historically had a high attrition rate. He is the common denominator in all of this. At the very best you could claim our coaches continue to recruit kids that don't fit in, but at what point do you start admitting they are having trouble with recruiting?
4.  CJ Revias is an example of what happens when you're challenged by incoming better talent. He could have left too, but he didn't and now he is starting again. He must have buckled down; don't know the facts.
No idea, glad to have him though.
5.  It's much easier to blame a coach than a player, I get that.  Chase Litton hasn't "EVER" looked like the kind of QBs that are really successful at MU. I blame the recruiting process on this, and yes, I put the acceptance of his coming here and being given such an important role on Bill Legg.  However, I also place a lot of that blame on the recuriters who aren't here any more.
I could be wrong, but Legg was the OC when CL was recruited. Sorry, but it falls on him. That is why he is in charge of the ENTIRE offense. EVERY. SINGLE. ASPECT.
6.  We are in conference C-USA. No one hates that worse than me.  If you didn't catch that, please re-read the last sentence.  While that is true, we are where we are and I'm not going to worsen the condition by making it sound like the conference sucks, the other teams suck, their universities suck, and we are doomed.  I'm nore like "let's keep getting better and making the conference better because this is where we're going to be for a long time".  Rip up your own home if you'd like, I won't participate in it.  C-USA is what it is; other than distance I still like it better than the MAC and SunBelt.
Facts PROVE that this conference does in fact suck. You can say it "viciously inhales" if the word "suck" is to much for you, but at the end of the day facts are facts.
7.  Anyone who calls me a Hamrick apologist doesn't know me at all. Go back and read my historic posts on how he approaches a big portion of the fan base population.  Yet I see no sense in pushing the issue and magnifying the shortcoming. I also know Dr. Gilbert and I can assure you he will make the appropriate decisions for MU.  Even if I'd like to see a change to someone more personable, I can't begin to know if that would be a good choice when 100% performance against the job description is evaluated. I just don't know enough about the budgeting, meeting expectations within resources, etc.  Wish I did, but I don't.
Hamrick is not a fan friendly AD. He's done a great job building new facilities which I think will pay off dividends for years to come.
 Having said that, I think its time for a change and would like to get someone with some energy and someone who understands technology and how to relate to the fans.
8.  Lastly, I delete my HerdFans Icon at least once a week, promising myself I'll stay away. I do that because I am sick and tired of folks who used to be so supportive being complicit in contributing to our downward slide.  Stallwards are needed right now more than anything else.  Boycotts and bitching don't get it done IMHO.
Boycotts do get it done. If we continued to average 28k game no matter what then Snyder would still be our coach

Thanks for asking...

[The E-Man]

E, I said also complicit. I stick to it. That's the way I feel, you feel differently.  Anyone can come to the games or stay home, if you stay home  IMHO you're complicit in the image of low attendance and lack of support.  Fact is, none of us will ever be the AD, or a football coach (could be wrong, maybe someone here is in the profession) at MU, but we can always be supporters.  Look at it like this, image always overpowers reality.  We can all stay positive in helping create the image.  That's how I feel.

We just have different opinions. I really fault Mike Hamrick, moreso than Doc for what's happening with our program and fan base. Mike promised changes last year and didn't make them.

[coalherd]

I watched Akron's RS Freshmen back up make his 2nd start and basically win the game for Akron against OU. The kid could run and throw. Why we can't develop QB's on a regular basis is beyond me. Cato worked his ass off to get better. Coaching plays a role, certainly, but kids have endless resources these days to better themselves - especially being a three year starter.
Chase has to turn it around. Hope he can.

Actually, svherd, having watched a heck of a lot of football this season on the tube, both Power and G5 games, and most of those teams that look more effective, and are more productive, offensively seem to be ones that have a good QB who can and will run the ball.

You mentioned Akron.  Last week in ESPN "MACtion", OU beat Toledo up in Athens.  The Bobcats have a good QB from Canada, believe he is only a sophomore, who runs the read option very well.  Whatever you want to call our O setup, Zone read, read option, etc., it just misses a very key element, IMO, when the QB is virtually NO threat to run the ball at all!  Why the hell Doc Holliday persists in letting Legg run the crap he does is beyond me, especially when even the most casual college football fan can discern that our offense is operating at well below peak or optimal efficiency and effectiveness!

[Herdalum83]

Thinking and feeling are one thing. Declaring things to be so is another.  Declaring MU's AD to be stupid, dumb, etc. isn't the same as saying that one feels he sucks.  Saying Doc is stupid, can't recruit, makes bad decisions, etc. is a lot different that saying you feel or think he does.  We just don't know. 

You can feel our progam is a shack, but to declare it is is another thing. 

Wholehearted agree that we're here for sharing honest thoughts.

I wasn't talking about our program, I was talking about our Conference. CUSA is a shack. That's not how I feel that's the objective truth. It is the worst football conference in America in 2017 by almost every measure. Doesn't mean it'll still be all of that next year or in 5 years. But, if we want to make improvements to the league we call home so we can make it more a modest single family abode and less a shack than work has to be done by not just us but several teams. Some of that work includes renevations. And sometimes during renevations you have to just gut a whole room and start from scratch. Now I beleive we need to gut the Marshall room and start over with a new HC and OC, but that's just how I feel as a fan. But, the rest about this league being bad in 2017 is a fact not a feeling.