Topic: 'Just win': Holliday not worried about style points

[chris88]

Time to go all "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" here...

I will argue that style points are definitely important, and I think this statement highlights why Doc has always had a cap on his performance at Marshall.  In fact, a 10-3 Boise team got the New Year Six bowl autobid over a 12-1 Marshall in 2014 (and would have still gotten it over a 13-0 Marshall) because of "style points" of the programs.  Marshall has nationally lost its reputation as being amoung the elite of the G5 even though we're the only one recently to have have "3 consecutive 10 win seasons" because we have no style points.

If you were to build an inverted college football hierarchy of needs...

1.) The program has to have resources and support to survive
2.) The program has to win
3.) The program has to have a championship mentality and performance
4.) The program has to develop a nationally solid and respectable reputation (style points)
5.) National elite status

You can't get to 3 or 4 without style points.  You can win all you want, but if no one takes notice or is not impressed, then the program's progress and future is ultimately capped.

And Boise once used US as a model.  They currently have 21 players in the NFL.  The caveat is Chris Peterson is a once in a generation type coach but before and after him they have been among the best G5 schools almost every year.

[elginherd]

Maclid is correct. In fact 'style points' are important for the P5 teams also. Since there is not truly a FBS national tournament, the 3rd and/or 4th team in gets there in a very subjective manner. And that has gotten even more subjective with the emphasis on the so-called 'eye-test' vs the more objective computer modeling.

'Style points' are even more important for mid-majors in crappy conferences...how else is a program going to attract attention from far-flung casual fans? Or keep many of us faithful interested?

[coalherd]

So as I see and read these various posts, it appears the biggest lament is that our football team's lack of exciting, productive and innovative offense.  Same qualities that are greatly admired and cheered by some posters when they are exhibited by the Herd's basketball team.

Now some have indicated the improvement in the football team's defense and special teams' play.  So if we can somehow find a little more offensive spark and production our football fortunes may rebound and improve significantly.

As for basketball, I would like for us, in addition to our exciting and productive offense, to improve our defensive intensity and effectiveness.  Too often, IMO, our defensive philosophy has been to "let the other team score so we can quickly get up the floor and jack up another three pointer"!  Can't tell me that a team that works hard and practices solid defense gives as many points as the Herd does; triple digits on several occasions and 90+ in many other games during the 2016-17 season.  When you give up 89 points to a bad team like Eastern KY, an OVC bottom feeder last year, in a not so close loss, you're not playing any defense.  Or give up umpteen layups, 3 foot hooks shots and uncontested dunks in absorbing a 25 point or so loss at the CAM to a sub .500 team like UTEP as we did last season, you're not playing any defense.  Hell we made their twin tower dudes look like Abdul-Jabbar and Olajuwon!  Maybe this season D'Antoni's guards won't constantly get beaten on the first step by opposing guards that starts them on an almost uncontested trip to the Herd's defensive goal, as has all too frequently been done in the past.  Maybe, too, other Herd defensive players will finally understand and master the technique of switching opponents in our man to man D.  Or, who knows, maybe the coaching staff will finally concede that maybe playing an occasional zone defense is warranted in certain game situations!

So if our basketball team can develop a defense to go with their offense, and if Doc and Legg can come up with a more exciting and productive offense to go along with our defense and special teams, hell, maybe then we can ALL go home HAPPY!!!

[MUther]

Nobody is unhappy that we've won.  In our two games that we've won, we had 2 kickoffs returned for a touchdown and a 70+ yard pick six and the second game their starting QB was gone very early in the game and we scored one planned touchdown from the 4 yardline on three tries in a drive that took several penalties (more luck) to even get to the redzone.  These are things that don't happen every game.  When the luck runs out and we are forced to rely on our offense to score points and sustain drives to relieve our defense a lot of us are doing the math and not seeing where it's going to come from. 

Each game shows us a little more of where we can make due.  There's no panic and "doing the math" says the conference teams we play aren't good, and, if we can use what we have built upon and string a few things together, we'll get past most of our conference schedule.  In playing some fairly weak competition so far this year, we've had one half out of 6 halves that I would say I felt like the offense was competing, and that was NCState, first half.  But there have been glimmers of hope in all the games.  I just want to see all those glimmers put together to shine. 

The emergence of a real deal RB, a QB that fixed a broken play with his feet and scored, no less, a receiving corps much better than we surmised with an amazing wideout option in Brady, and Willie being healthy and looking good, too, are all things that I have loved this season on offense.  Just give me one game where all this clicks for 60 minutes of football and we can say "Boys, we've got an Offense to go with that D and Special Teams."  We start dominating on both sides of the ball, the wins and the style points will happen.

[MicDrass1]

For the offense we have with the plays that we have, if Litton doesn't use the run of the read-option we will not score big points consistently.  We may never score big points consistently without defensive and special teams help. 

[Herdalum83]

You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results?  Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

The Bball team won 20 games last year and made it to the CUSA championship game. How hard is it to see that the basketball team, from where it was under TH is improving? DD's team has work to do, true, but, the basketball program is trending upward with improvement each and every season. While the jury is out on whether Doc and co can repeat the success of 2014, with a program that's trending downward.

Doc, in my opinion, has to win at least 6 more games this season if he wants the heat to cool down and Dantoni needs to reach the NIT or the NCAAs  this season to keep the heat from being turned up on him.

[banker]

I think the underlying issue causing the dissatisfaction with the offense is the lack of a vertical attack, or should I say scant presence of a vertical attack.  Litton threw 43 passes to get 223 yards.  That's barely over 5 yards per attempt.  In case you're not a stats nut, that's a really bad number.

We are a fan base that got spoiled on players like Leftwich throwing deep outs and skinny posts as his bread and butter passes, not three yard screens and 5 yard hitches.  When you don't have chunk plays you are forced to be disciplined enough to be able to go 12-16 plays without holding, false starting, or anything else that puts you behind the chains.  You can't convert 50% of your 3rd downs, which is normally consider good, you have to convert 60-65% if you want to make it to the endzone more than 2-3 times a game because you are going to face 3-5 3rd downs per drive.

In case you are wondering, the old Marshall of the 90s and early 00s saw the QBs averaging 9+ yards per attempt.   If Leftwich or Pennington threw the ball 43 times they were going to have 350 to 450 yards, not 223, even though their completion percentage would be about the same.  That's offensive efficiency, moving the ball more yards per play.

[MicDrass1]

How many seam routes do we see a game... None.   These college teams with prolific offenses are stretching the middle of the field   Passing plays behind the lbs.  we throw in front of the lbs in the middle.  We are not using the entire field.   Now the ? Is is it Litton or Legg.

[Apollo]

How many seam routes do we see a game... None.   These college teams with prolific offenses are stretching the middle of the field   Passing plays behind the lbs.  we throw in front of the lbs in the middle.  We are not using the entire field.   Now the ? Is is it Litton or Legg.

Not that cut and dry. The answer is both. You drop Cato in this offense with this supporting cast (provided King is the RB), we win at NC state, this is an undefeated season and we're eating tostitos on jan. 1. The reason being is bco Cato's improvisation and elusiveness. The offense works well with a true option QB. We're doing it with a pro style QB...notch one for Legg. On the flip side, Chase seems scared to tuck and run and make the offense effective and keep the defense honest, not to mention he never looks over the middle to pass. Its always a swing to the sideline or just a backyard sprint and outrun the d and loft it up down the sideline...both notches to Chase. Throw in a coach that recruits best available instead of best for your offense and one that refuses to admit and correct mistakes... The point is there's plenty to go around and you can't single out one person. Its not just Chase, not just Legg, you have to throw in Mirabal for not having a line worth a dime and no depth to boot and John bc he's the master recruiter and the man in charge. The buck stops with him. Changes could be made if he wanted them. After last year, that offense is the same 3 games in and he is either clueless or doesnt care. I'm not talking about firing Legg 3 games into the season either. That ship sailed months ago. I'm talking about a head coach telling his OC to make changes to the O to fit the QB he has. That hasn't happened. And that's a problem.

[The E-Man]

The offense works well with a true option QB. We're doing it with a pro style QB...notch one for Legg. The point is there's plenty to go around and you can't single out one person. Its not just Chase, not just Legg, you have to throw in Mirabal for not having a line worth a dime and no depth to boot and John bc he's the master recruiter and the man in charge. The buck stops with him. Changes could be made if he wanted them. After last year, that offense is the same 3 games in and he is either clueless or doesnt care. I'm not talking about firing Legg 3 games into the season either. That ship sailed months ago. I'm talking about a head coach telling his OC to make changes to the O to fit the QB he has. That hasn't happened. And that's a problem.

And, a lot of Herd fans have a problem with reading and hearing the truth! I've gotten half of my "smites" over the last year because I've been very critical of Doc and Hamrick. We were "promised changes" for the entire team. Only 2/3 seemed to have made that change, the offense is (the SOS), acronym for Same Ole Sh*t!

[Herdalum83]

I think the underlying issue causing the dissatisfaction with the offense is the lack of a vertical attack, or should I say scant presence of a vertical attack.  Litton threw 43 passes to get 223 yards.  That's barely over 5 yards per attempt.  In case you're not a stats nut, that's a really bad number.

We are a fan base that got spoiled on players like Leftwich throwing deep outs and skinny posts as his bread and butter passes, not three yard screens and 5 yard hitches.  When you don't have chunk plays you are forced to be disciplined enough to be able to go 12-16 plays without holding, false starting, or anything else that puts you behind the chains.  You can't convert 50% of your 3rd downs, which is normally consider good, you have to convert 60-65% if you want to make it to the endzone more than 2-3 times a game because you are going to face 3-5 3rd downs per drive.

In case you are wondering, the old Marshall of the 90s and early 00s saw the QBs averaging 9+ yards per attempt.   If Leftwich or Pennington threw the ball 43 times they were going to have 350 to 450 yards, not 223, even though their completion percentage would be about the same.  That's offensive efficiency, moving the ball more yards per play.

It's such a bad number that Newton, Howard's QB threw 22 passes against Kent State and only completed 9 and still passed for more yards than Litton.

[chris88]

Route combos and non use of certain route types have a lot to do with the offensive inefficiency.  They certainly don't use the entire field, but they also don't give the QB good options in a progression or make the defense think.  Lack of motion, lack of audibles, lack of sequence, lack of play progression all lead to a more predictable offense...and that's just the passing part of the offense.  Chase made a great play on first TD last week...but it was an indy play after the original play call broke down.  The play call might as well have been "get open on three". Kudos to OL as well for keeping play alive.  The 2 biggest offensive plays in first 2 game were pedestrian routes along sideline that Johnson (vs Miami) and Brady (vs NC State) used athleticism etc to turn short gains into very big gains. That's part of the game for sure but relying on those types of plays isn't likely to lead to consistent performance.

[Pud]

Football has changed the last few years - coaches at all levels (just look k at the NFL)
are now scheming offenses not to turn the ball over, very conservative. Some think
this is why ratings are down in the NFL, it has become boring. In college you are seeing less of a down field attack at to compared to several years ago. It is all about getting athetes in space and let them make a move and get up field in the most conservative way possible. Yes, I would like to see more throws up the middle of the field, but our QB when he misses throws he misses high, and missing high in the middle of the field gets picked off and goes the other way for 6. Also
The most effective receiver down the field is usually a TE and ours has to stay in to block because of issues at tackle.
It is what it is.

[QuickStrike]

Football has changed the last few years - coaches at all levels (just look k at the NFL)
are now scheming offenses not to turn the ball over, very conservative. Some think
this is why ratings are down in the NFL, it has become boring.

MU ratings might be down because of a boring offense, but NFL ratings are down due to some player disrespect towards the American flag and those who fought & died for the freedoms it represents.  They are makes the same mistake ESPN did by becoming a platform for liberal anti-American activism and views.  Like some MU fans were turned off by certain things, some NFL fans are turned off by this anthem protest stuff.   

[herdorbust]

I agree with you quickstrike. I know to many peopl that have been hard core nfl fans and they arent watching near as much as they used too. Its just sickening watching these punks take a knee during the NA. Not the place.

[svherd]

Attendance and viewership are down at most sporting events these days. Its been an ongoing trend for a few years. People are tired of watching prima donnas and paying inflated tix prices.

[herd2win]

We are definitely seeing a trend change with sports and viewership...I just read that revenues may be down as much as $200 million for the NFL this year due to many factors....the flag protests being number one.

ESPN fails to realize that men were the majority of their viewers and tuned in to catch up on sports...they have shifted dramatically to a very liberal twist on everything and the majority of the on air people being minorities or women...ratings show this as ESPNs cable cutting and ratings are way down.

[Ovaltine Jenkins]

ESPN fails to realize that men were the majority of their viewers and tuned in to catch up on sports...they have shifted dramatically to a very liberal twist on everything and the majority of the on air people being minorities or women...ratings show this as ESPNs cable cutting and ratings are way down.

The majority of Marshall's football team is African-American.  What does color have to do with anything?  This is a great sports board which I find entertaining.  Isn't hypocritical to criticize ESPN for a perceived "liberal" bent while this forum could be perceived by someone like me as having an opposite slant? Let's talk sports.

[The E-Man]

The majority of Marshall's football team is African-American.  What does color have to do with anything?  This is a great sports board which I find entertaining. Isn't hypocritical to criticize ESPN for a perceived "liberal" bent while this forum could be perceived by someone like me as having an opposite slant? Let's talk sports.

Thank you, brother! I'd give anything as would the majority of Herd Fans to be on ESPN again like back in the day.

[Herdalum83]

Route combos and non use of certain route types have a lot to do with the offensive inefficiency.  They certainly don't use the entire field, but they also don't give the QB good options in a progression or make the defense think.  Lack of motion, lack of audibles, lack of sequence, lack of play progression all lead to a more predictable offense...and that's just the passing part of the offense.  Chase made a great play on first TD last week...but it was an indy play after the original play call broke down.  The play call might as well have been "get open on three". Kudos to OL as well for keeping play alive.  The 2 biggest offensive plays in first 2 game were pedestrian routes along sideline that Johnson (vs Miami) and Brady (vs NC State) used athleticism etc to turn short gains into very big gains. That's part of the game for sure but relying on those types of plays isn't likely to lead to consistent performance.

I agree with this, our route combos are puzzling sometimes. I have seen at least a dozen times this year where we have had 2 WRs within 5 yards of each other and a third WR just a few more yards away from them while leaving entire sections of the field with no pass catcher in them. Effectively allowing defenses to cover with fewer defenders.

[coalherd]

And, a lot of Herd fans have a problem with reading and hearing the truth! I've gotten half of my "smites" over the last year because I've been very critical of Doc and Hamrick. We were "promised changes" for the entire team. Only 2/3 seemed to have made that change, the offense is (the SOS), acronym for Same Ole Sh*t!

Don't sweat the "smite" crap, E-Man.  You happen to be, unfortunately, one of the minority of Herd fans who refuse to accept mediocrity as the acceptable standard for Herd athletics.  Too many Kelly green wearers look at the sub par performances of MU athletics and the lack of championships among all the schools' teams while in CUSA and just shrug their shoulders and say, "well, that's just the way it is in good ole Huntington, WV".

Contrast that to the mentality out in Lincoln, Nebraska.  After about 5 or 6 years, the Nebraska administration just canned their AD.  Officials cite lack of performance/progress (i.e., WINS) in football and basketball, mainly for the action.  One can also read into that statement the fact that the exceedingly loyal Cornhusker fan base is none too thrilled with the school's lack of success, championships, in those sports since joining the Big 10.

Back in H-town, one can count the Marshall CUSA championships since entering the league on the fingers of a one armed man, with fingers to spare!!  What a novel idea Nebraska has:  making the Athletic Director ACCOUNTABLE for the success, or lack thereof, of his department's athletic teams.  Wonder if the application of such an approach has ever dawned on the powers that be in Huntington and at MU??

Its past time, E, for the MU community at large and its top administration to say that being average or even mediocre is NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE as the norm at MU.  Be it in the school's academic disciplines or in its athletic programs, or, frankly, in any other activity of the school.  Just fielding a certain number of teams because being a conference member or the NCAA requires MU to field that many teams should NOT be the main factor that Mike Hamrick is evaluated on.  How said teams fare on the fields and courts, are they competitive, can they win more than lose, can they garner an expected reasonable number of championships in said sports, these are the things he should be evaluated upon.

Maybe MU officials should take a long, hard look to see if just being average to mediocre in academics and athletics is perhaps a VERY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE SCHOOL'S STAGNANT ENROLLMENT and FAILURE TO GROW for the last couple of decades!!

[herdgameplan]

Doc in his pre Cincy presser as much as revealed his thoughts on winning and putting up points!
He is more interested in his and Legg's way or nothing else.......He has found his identity .......low expectations! He has screwed himself coaching wise for me totally! Marshall will be better off right now with Tony Petersen if we can get him back from ECU! He is really appreciated there and if their HC keeps their train wreck going he may end up being the next HC at ECU!

[svherd]

Don't sweat the "smite" crap, E-Man.  You happen to be, unfortunately, one of the minority of Herd fans who refuse to accept mediocrity as the acceptable standard for Herd athletics.  Too many Kelly green wearers look at the sub par performances of MU athletics and the lack of championships among all the schools teams while in CUSA and just shrug their shoulders and say, "well, that's just the way it is in good ole Huntington, WV".

Contrast that to the mentality out in Lincoln, Nebraska.  After about 5 or 6 years, the Nebraska administration just canned their AD.  Officials cite lack of performance/progress (i.e., WINS) in football and basketball, mainly for the action.  One can also read into that statement the fact that the exceedingly loyal Cornhusker fan base is none too thrilled with the school's lack of success, championships, in those sports since joining the Big 10.

Back in H-town, one can count the Marshall CUSA championships since entering the league on the fingers of a one armed man, with fingers to spare!!  What a novel idea Nebraska has:  making the Athletic Director ACCOUNTABLE for the success, or lack thereof, of his department's athletic teams.  Wonder if the application of such an approach has ever dawned on the powers that be in Huntington and at MU??

Its past time, E, for the MU community at large and its top administration to say that being average or even mediocre is NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE as the norm at MU.  Be it in the school's academic disciplines or in its athletic programs, or, frankly, in any other activity of the school.  Just fielding a certain number of teams because being a conference member or the NCAA requires MU to field that many teams should NOT be the main factor that Mike Hamrick is evaluated on.  How said teams fare on the fields and courts, are they competitive, can they win more than lose, can they garner an expected reasonable number of championships in said sports, these are the things he should be evaluated upon.

Maybe MU officials should take a long, hard look to see if just being average to mediocre in academics and athletics is perhaps a VERY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE SCHOOL'S STAGNANT ENROLLMENT and FAILURE TO GROW for the last couple of decades!!

Well said Coal and agree 100%

[The E-Man]

Don't sweat the "smite" crap, E-Man.  You happen to be, unfortunately, one of the minority of Herd fans who refuse to accept mediocrity as the acceptable standard for Herd athletics. Too many Kelly green wearers look at the sub par performances of MU athletics and the lack of championships among all the schools teams while in CUSA and just shrug their shoulders and say, "well, that's just the way it is in good ole Huntington, WV".

Contrast that to the mentality out in Lincoln, Nebraska.  After about 5 or 6 years, the Nebraska administration just canned their AD.  Officials cite lack of performance/progress (i.e., WINS) in football and basketball, mainly for the action.  One can also read into that statement the fact that the exceedingly loyal Cornhusker fan base is none too thrilled with the school's lack of success, championships, in those sports since joining the Big 10.

Back in H-town, one can count the Marshall CUSA championships since entering the league on the fingers of a one armed man, with fingers to spare!!  What a novel idea Nebraska has:  making the Athletic Director ACCOUNTABLE for the success, or lack thereof, of his department's athletic teams.  Wonder if the application of such an approach has ever dawned on the powers that be in Huntington and at MU??

Its past time, E, for the MU community at large and its top administration to say that being average or even mediocre is NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE as the norm at MU.  Be it in the school's academic disciplines or in its athletic programs, or, frankly, in any other activity of the school.  Just fielding a certain number of teams because being a conference member or the NCAA requires MU to field that many teams should NOT be the main factor that Mike Hamrick is evaluated on.  How said teams fare on the fields and courts, are they competitive, can they win more than lose, can they garner an expected reasonable number of championships in said sports, these are the things he should be evaluated upon.

Maybe MU officials should take a long, hard look to see if just being average to mediocre in academics and athletics is perhaps a VERY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE SCHOOL'S STAGNANT ENROLLMENT and FAILURE TO GROW for the last couple of decades!!

This^ another great post, not because you're defending me, but what you said about Nebraska being "proactive" and not accepting (a mediocre program). They are doing it the right way starting with the athletic director and working their way down.

[goherd24]

You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results?  Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

I respect your posts jst, but DD has literally improved every single season, and our team played for a title with much less raw talent than others in our league. That man will bring us an NCAA tourney appearance in the next couple years. He is getting the most out of players. He makes bad players averagr, average players good, good players great, and that is how you can really tell who is a good coach and who isn't.

Doc has pretty good talent all over the field, and not many times, have i seen a player develop into a better player, while the season progresses, or year to year. he has however, demonstrated an innate ability to mis-judge talent, and put players into dog houses, and a very strong ability to not be able to adapt to any situation. You know, its ok for a HC to not be an expert in every field, but he does need to be the CEO and put people who can do a good job around him. I don't care if he ever attends a meeting or watches a minute of film if he hires the people that can get it done, and helps find the players to get it done. thats his ultimate job.  I gave him credit when he got rid of Rippon because it needed to be done. It has been 10000% clear that Legg is holding us back before Cato, and after Cato, even at times during Cato's tenure. Doc has failed to address that need, and that is unacceptable. Any business owner or leader knows, when someone continually fails to do their job, changes must be made to address the issue. Doc refuses to do so with Legg. I truly believe if he was gone, we would see a much higher level of support and excitement around the football program. May even be 3-0 right now with an ACC win.