Topic: announcers are building a great case

[BuyNtelos4]

Come on Dale, both are still very good wins........Va Tech has a road win v. OSU and they hung 70 on UNC, we have one game that we have scored over 50....... and we beaten anyone that would beat OSU @ OSU

Of course they matter and they are still good wins.  If we had played and beaten Vandy, as bad as they are or Indiana, or any other BAD P-5 we would be ranked higher and along with being undefeated would be the team to beat out for the access and would be getting some dark horse mention for the playoff........... and remember both ECU and CSU have beaten 2 P-5 schools.

You sound just like your ESPN counterparts, and having the balls to sound that way, here, now, on a Herd board, as a Herd fan, well it speaks for itself.  I would say there are 80 other D-1 teams that would have beaten OSU that day, and a few FCS teams as well.  They weren't the same OSU team that day that they are today.  They had several "tune up" games against cake teams after that to practice and improve.  In reality, that is all they have played since that game are essentially "tune up" games to practice and become better.  Many of your own ESPN counterparts are saying that a 1 loss OSU will not deserve one of the 4 team playoff spots even if the beat Michigan State because that will be their only "Good Win".  The quotes I have heard on ESPN is that even that good win is not enough to make up for how bad the loss against a horrid VT team on their home field, regardless of injuries, and that is very true.  

My point however, I don't think you can in one sentence say that an OSU that wins out and wins the B1G championship does not deserve a playoff spot because the loss to a horrid VT team is to bad of a loss, then in the very next sentence argue that ECU does deserve the Go5 Access spot due to the great win over that same horrid VT team.  VT beating OSU was not anywhere near what you are blowing it up to be, and honestly I don't think OSU will win out anyway.  Their schedule since playing VT has been horrid.  Kent State, Cincinnati, Maryland, and Rutgers.  Those schools aren't much better than Akron, MTSU, FIU, and Ohio, or every other bottom half of FBS school we have played.  
I don't even need to discuss you saying hanging 70 on UNC at home is a good win.  They are 2-4 against D1 competition.  They lost to that same horrid VT team discussed above, at home.  Sure, they played with a vastly overrated Notre Dame team whose biggest accomplishment, wait, I mean only accomplishment, is that they only lost to another overrated FSU team by one possession.

I have a great deal of respect for your accomplishments, however I had hoped that in retirement we would get a bit more honesty.  However, it is clear, the company line is still the priority.
Since you have me thinking about the Worldwide Leader, and you make it clear that you consider Virginia Tech and UNC great wins, please elaborate on your opinion of Marshall not being present in ESPN's top 25 polls.  Maybe you can just let me know what their thinking is on that.  

To conclude, with all due respect, I must say I am thankful that you, where your loyalty clearly lies, are not a member of the selection committee, nor any other prominent member of ESPN, is a member of the panel.  However, with all of their money and unethical business practices, I can guarantee that they are likely in the pocket of several committee members.  My #1 bet for who they went after 1st would be Condoleezza Rice, the one member whom you would believe was put their for their honesty, integrity, and whom also happens to be specifically aligned with the C-USA.  Lord, we are screwed aren't we.

[goherd24]

You don't know that..... you really don't, sure UConn, SMU and USF aren't very good, but you can't say with any authority that an FIU that lost to Bethune Cookman is any better than any of them.....

Just be objective guys, you are making assumptions as bad as the assumptions that many pundits are making about MU.

I can say with good confidence that FIU beats smu, mtsu beats usf and akron beats uconn.... yes i can. I know you want to disagree right now, and espn being attacked burns you up but you have to take off the blinders.

[BuyNtelos4]

I can say with good confidence that FIU beats smu, mtsu beats usf and akron beats uconn.... yes i can. I know you want to disagree right now, and espn being attacked burns you up but you have to take off the blinders.

That worldwide Kool Aid:) I guess maybe as much as we have learned to hate them and can see the damage they cause to those that do not do business with them, maybe it is just as possible that we are all simply butt hurt that we are no longer part of the worldwide cult, and stuck on the outside looking in:)

[wasbarryb]

Just be objective guys, you are making assumptions as bad as the assumptions that many pundits are making about MU.

True, but this is a partisan message board. No one comes to a partisan message board expecting objectivity.

ESPN is  a national network allegedly with some allusions to objectivity and neutrality. Those pundits that you are using to compare people on this board to unfavorably are turning ESPN into a partisan message board that favors the likes of ECU while minimizing MU .

[Banshee]

Question to Dshoe or anyone w/ any knowledge of the situation:  did MU try and schedule a P5 for this season?  If so who.  If not, why not?  Seems like the 1-AA team, or one of Akron/Miami Oh/Ohio U. might've been fodder for being moved like L'ville did w/ us.  Was no attempt made?  Or did MU just say let's roll w/ it and see where we end up...

[dshoe]

You sound just like your ESPN counterparts, and having the balls to sound that way, here, now, on a Herd board, as a Herd fan, well it speaks for itself.  I would say there are 80 other D-1 teams that would have beaten OSU that day, and a few FCS teams as well.  They weren't the same OSU team that day that they are today.  They had several "tune up" games against cake teams after that to practice and improve.  In reality, that is all they have played since that game are essentially "tune up" games to practice and become better.  Many of your own ESPN counterparts are saying that a 1 loss OSU will not deserve one of the 4 team playoff spots even if the beat Michigan State because that will be their only "Good Win".  The quotes I have heard on ESPN is that even that good win is not enough to make up for how bad the loss against a horrid VT team on their home field, regardless of injuries, and that is very true.  

My point however, I don't think you can in one sentence say that an OSU that wins out and wins the B1G championship does not deserve a playoff spot because the loss to a horrid VT team is to bad of a loss, then in the very next sentence argue that ECU does deserve the Go5 Access spot due to the great win over that same horrid VT team.  VT beating OSU was not anywhere near what you are blowing it up to be, and honestly I don't think OSU will win out anyway.  Their schedule since playing VT has been horrid.  Kent State, Cincinnati, Maryland, and Rutgers.  Those schools aren't much better than Akron, MTSU, FIU, and Ohio, or every other bottom half of FBS school we have played.  
I don't even need to discuss you saying hanging 70 on UNC at home is a good win.  They are 2-4 against D1 competition.  They lost to that same horrid VT team discussed above, at home.  Sure, they played with a vastly overrated Notre Dame team whose biggest accomplishment, wait, I mean only accomplishment, is that they only lost to another overrated FSU team by one possession.

I have a great deal of respect for your accomplishments, however I had hoped that in retirement we would get a bit more honesty.  However, it is clear, the company line is still the priority.
Since you have me thinking about the Worldwide Leader, and you make it clear that you consider Virginia Tech and UNC great wins, please elaborate on your opinion of Marshall not being present in ESPN's top 25 polls.  Maybe you can just let me know what their thinking is on that.  

To conclude, with all due respect, I must say I am thankful that you, where your loyalty clearly lies, are not a member of the selection committee, nor any other prominent member of ESPN, is a member of the panel.  However, with all of their money and unethical business practices, I can guarantee that they are likely in the pocket of several committee members.  My #1 bet for who they went after 1st would be Condoleezza Rice, the one member whom you would believe was put their for their honesty, integrity, and whom also happens to be specifically aligned with the C-USA.  Lord, we are screwed aren't we.

What I wrote was honest and has nothing to do with ESPN and everything to do with how the Nation will look at that win by ECU, beating VTech is and will be seen as a quality win.  You just can't say with any credibility that there were 80 teams that would have beaten OSU that day, just like you can't quantify how much VA Tech played over their heads that day. 

I have NO incentive to support ESPN's position, none whatsoever, I've been very critical of them and anyone there's individual position when they are wrong or say something stupid..... but posts like yours simply show that you and many Herd fans want support just because we are Marshall..... and are looking for "conspiracies" against us that just don't exist.  It these analyst's jobs to report and to state their opinions, when their opinions aren't pro MU, you guys go off the deep end and often do it with such a mean spirit that it's embarrassing and incredibly small minded. 

Marshall is having a great year and if they continue to win and win BIG, everyone will take notice and frankly they are beginning to do that now, but this idea that you have to demean everyone and draw unsupportable conclusions to boost the Herd makes our fans look fanatic.  Many of you are doing the exact same thing you criticize other fan bases for doing, including the fans up North that you find (we all find) incredibly obnoxious at times. 

We play who we play, ECU plays who they play, we can't change that!! Talent almost always rises to the top.  If we go undefeated and don't make an access bowl, it will be a shame and a very deserving team will be left out, and I think the MOST deserving team will be left out, but we will have given it our best shot and our schedule will be the downfall, not me, not ESPN, not Fox, not CBS, the SEC, WVU or any other outside element that we couldn't control.

And by the way, I have NO ESPN counterparts.

[dshoe]

dshoe, I just wrote what they said. They were o ECU's jock, you want me to lie about that?  They showed 90 seconds of highlights, which included one Uconn play and the rest ECU talking about how great Hardy and Carden are. You would have thought it was a 50-7 ECU win.

We have handed 6 of our 7 opponents their worst beat down on the year. We haven't played any P5, but those teams have, and those P5 teams couldn't due what we did to them even with us pulling our starters in all those games.  Something else that doesn't get talked about, we take our foot off the gas and still win by 30.  ECU was still running all their starters against UNC when the game ended.  The game tonight, they score a TD with about a minute to go to get the margin to 10 when they could have went victory formation with Uconn out of timeouts. They are working their butts off to try and look more impressive than they are, problem is that they just aren't that impressive. They are one dimensional on offense and have a questionable defense and poor special teams.

I agree entirely with your 2nd paragraph!!! It's your choice of ESPN sucked ECU's xxxxxx that isn't needed.  There were 2 games played Thursday night and they showed much longer highlights of those games than they would have had it been a Saturday.  The committee won't be swayed by an ESPN highlight, they will watch games and independently edited breakdowns of the the games, they will know that ECU struggled in this game and in the USF game and they will know how badly MU beats the teams they beat........ but in the end, will it be enough to overcome the schedule that we play?  The games will be their measuring stick, not highlight shows and not PR firms (which I think was a terrific and proactive idea) and not message boards.  No one hopes more than I do (as a very loyal Marshall fan) that we carry the day, that ECU loses another game so that there is no real decision, that we continue to win BIG and impressively, but the schedule is our Achilles' Heel, and pretending it isn't and there is some great conspiracy against us just makes us look silly
The above paragraph is why I'm not too worried.  If the committee members actually watch all the games like they are suppose to they will see who the better team is.

[MrRobertPruett]

Back on the subject of best wins...MTSU will have a chance to really help us out. If they could finish 9-3, which would mean they would beat BYU at home, it would give us a little boost in perception. Akron's QB is hurt, didn't play at OU, we need him to get healthy so they can challenge for the MAC East.

[jstherd]

ECU;s schedule includes 4 teams in the BOTTOM 25. They're strength of schedule cannot be much higher than ours. Yes, we do have to beat the teams we play badly, but as 24 points out, WE ARE.

If you listened to the end of the game conversation, the one that called the game ask the color man, what this game meant to ECU. The color guy said, "It is a black mark." The guy that called the game said, (parapharsing, because I don't remember the exact quote), "A couple weeks ago, I had ECU ahead of Marshall even if they lose 2." He did not elaborate.

[Olen]

They also mentioned how badly MU beat ECU last season, but followed it up with "....but this is 2014 and not 2013". While we try to spin that game as having bearing on this year, it doesn't, it was last year period.  As long as the comments are factual and the opinions fair, which they were tonight, none of us should be upset.

Actually, this is not true.  The human polls (AP & Coaches) start with a pre-season poll that is largely influenced by the final polls of the previous season, even though the human polls no longer form a part of a formula used for rankings but are still considered by most "influential" of popular opinion (possibly amongst the committee).  In addition, several of the computer rating services use the previous season and/or seasons in tabulating the ratings within those services, many of which will be relied upon by writers and coaches in shaping their voting in the polls, and many of which will be relied upon by committee members in the calculus each uses to construct their own top 25 rankings. 

.....  if we win out and they win out, we have a real shot if we continue to win HUGE and are really impressive we will have the cache of being unbeaten and 13-0 vs. 11-1, but we will still have played the 126th best schedule vs. the 80th best schedule.  We have to hope that the Coach's poll continues to move MU up and keeps ECU relatively flat.  They are the more definitive poll, even though not officially considered.

Not that there is a tremendous difference between the 80th and 126th positions in an SoS distribution, but for some perspective, there are many computer rating services that place the SoS ratings of ECU and Marshall as virtually the same and/or with the Herd ahead of the Pirates.  An argument could be made that the fact that ECU's schedule included So. Car., VT, and UNC and still lands in the 80s (or worse) is an indication of how unimpressive those two wins and the road loss have become in the recent weeks.  That bears out in the fact that the only two "rankings" that have ECU ahead of Marshall are the AP and ESPN "Experts" Polls, which are heavily influenced by the "sexy" P-5 teams (and two wins), while the Massey Composite (and all the individual computer ratings formerly used by the BCS) have the Herd ahead and have the SoS in the same neighborhood, if not with the Herd ahead in that metric.  Although you may (or may not) take some umbrage to the following characterization, it is extraordinarily tone-deaf for ESPN's "Experts" Poll (Gang of 13) to all but ignore the Herd based on a weak schedule (and elevate ECU for a "stronger" schedule) when: (a) ESPN's Bottom 25 contain at least four of ECU's opponents (and only one of Marshall's) and (b) ESPN's "computer" ranking slots Marshall at #21 (with 14.5 rating, and #102 SoS) and thirty-spots higher than ECU at #51 (with a 5.4 rating, and #76 SoS).  Marshall's power rating is nearly THREE TIMES that of ECU's in spite of the alleged differences in the schedules.   


(Directed at and in response no one in this thread) There are too many folks, esp. the media-types, that get caught-up in the fallacy of perception.  ECU beating the two cellar-dwellers of the ACC Coastal Division means more than the team that has (thusfar) dominated the best G5 conference (CUSA) using head-to-head metrics.  That (il)logic deserves the Gordian Knot that it ties but is a disservice to making appropriate decisions about which team merits the access bowl slot.

[whf]

ESPN and C-USA are like oil and water, but there are two ingredients there.  I don't know who the oil is, or who the oil is; but the Conference stirred the pot hard when they so diligently sought other outlets for a few bucks more.

Its business, not football. The football gets played on the field and the homes of recruits.  If we were 5 and 2 we'd be rooting like hexx for ECU to get that bid because we don't want Cincy, USF, or holly crap UCF; or plug in anyone else.

ECU isn't battling MU for that spot, or CSU for that matter. They are battling themselves, just like we are.

Candidly (I have no right to write /state this but I am going to anyway) the "blame" is beginning to make us look like a little kid blaming bid brother for all our woohs.

Guys, do you really forget that ESPN built the bowl system that for the last few years we have "longed" to play in.  Have you forgotten their trips to Huntington to view MU games and promote the heck out of our brand.  They didn't do it for MU then, and they aren't doing it for ECU now. Their doing it like any good business should, for their stateholders.

Now pout on, pout on.

Glad our team isn't hanging around blaming anyone else for their challenges; just lining up and knocking the slobber out of everyone ever week.

[BHFIOHIO]

"few" being about 800,000 bucks a yr diff or 4 mil over 5 yrs. That's not few to Marshall and that's not counting ticket dollar loss by playing 4 straight Tuesdays in November like Akron is about to do. Article just written this week showing our Ath Budjet 800 grand in the red. And I actually think we have been on TV a lot. So it goes without saying that I believe the CUSA decision worked for us.

[whf]

Which of you are watching those Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday night games that you don't want to play?

Heck, I admit it, I turn the tube on every day to check if /who might be playing on any channel I can find.  And I bet many of you bitching about those games (not wanting MU to be on / play then) are watching them too.

[dshoe]

ESPN and C-USA are like oil and water, but there are two ingredients there.  I don't know who the oil is, or who the oil is; but the Conference stirred the pot hard when they so diligently sought other outlets for a few bucks more.

Its business, not football. The football gets played on the field and the homes of recruits.  If we were 5 and 2 we'd be rooting like hexx for ECU to get that bid because we don't want Cincy, USF, or holly crap UCF; or plug in anyone else.

ECU isn't battling MU for that spot, or CSU for that matter. They are battling themselves, just like we are.

Candidly (I have no right to write /state this but I am going to anyway) the "blame" is beginning to make us look like a little kid blaming bid brother for all our woohs.

Guys, do you really forget that ESPN built the bowl system that for the last few years we have "longed" to play in.  Have you forgotten their trips to Huntington to view MU games and promote the heck out of our brand.  They didn't do it for MU then, and they aren't doing it for ECU now. Their doing it like any good business should, for their stateholders.

Now pout on, pout on.

Glad our team isn't hanging around blaming anyone else for their challenges; just lining up and knocking the slobber out of everyone ever week.

Great post and right on the money!!!

[k00laid]

Dshoe i understand that however, was not our fault Louisville could not play us.

Our fault or not, it is still something that has to be taken into consideration. The dog ate my homework rarely works.

[field pass]

Come on Dale, both are still very good wins........Va Tech has a road win v. OSU and they hung 70 on UNC, we have one game that we have scored over 50....... and we beaten anyone that would beat OSU @ OSU

Of course they matter and they are still good wins.  If we had played and beaten Vandy, as bad as they are or Indiana, or any other BAD P-5 we would be ranked higher and along with being undefeated would be the team to beat out for the access and would be getting some dark horse mention for the playoff........... and remember both ECU and CSU have beaten 2 P-5 schools.

If VT and UNC were dominating the ACC and had strong win/loss records this year...I some how picture that Dan would be adding that to his argument above.  Yet as dismal of a season as UNC and VT are having overall, Dan isn't tempering his argument with how poorly UNC and VT are performing (overall record).

The committee Im sure will look back at ECUs wins over VT and UNC and giving them less kudos for it if those two opponents come in at the bottom of the ACC.  The strength of their two P5 wins are slowly fading away.  But I wouldn't expect Dan to notice that....lol.

[field pass]

Our fault or not, it is still something that has to be taken into consideration. The dog ate my homework rarely works.

True, but when some haters lie about us by extrapolating to...."we intentionally don't want to play a tough schedule"  or "P5s just wont play Marshall" or " they don't play a tough schedule, therefore we know for a fact that Marshall sucks."  You have to come back and balance out those statements with a more rational thought process that espn representatives/employees have been lacking for the most part.

[MarshallGrad]

True, but when some haters lie about us by extrapolating to...."we intentionally don't want to play a tough schedule"  or "P5s just wont play Marshall" or " they don't play a tough schedule, therefore we know for a fact that Marshall sucks."  You have to come back and balance out those statements with a more rational thought process that espn representatives/employees have been lacking for the most part.

Those were written on this forum?

[field pass]

Those were written on this forum?

no espn...on tv...Ive watched/listened to them saying stuff like that.

[_sturt_]

True, but this is a partisan message board. No one comes to a partisan message board expecting objectivity.

Really?

All I know is, if one cannot be objective here among one's own, it's hard to imagine when he could ever think objectively.

No?

[_sturt_]

no espn...on tv...Ive watched/listened to them saying stuff like that.

fp, I think there was a statement embedded in that MGrad question if you look at it closely. Just a thought.

[SuperAnjario]

It's a coin flip between us and ECU right now.  Anyone who says "likely" about either team's chances at the access bowl is selling you BS.

We'll see when the rankings come out.

[_sturt_]

The first statement disagrees with the second and third statement, SA. I think you eventually got it right, though.

In fact, even this first ranking will only partially inform what we want to know--there's a month left in the season, and how volatile the rankings will be (ie, how much any given loss or near-loss affects how the Chosen 12 think) won't be somewhat understood until that second poll a week from Tuesday.

[_sturt_]

Actually, this is not true.  The human polls (AP & Coaches) start with a pre-season poll that is largely influenced by the final polls of the previous season, even though the human polls no longer form a part of a formula used for rankings but are still considered by most "influential" of popular opinion (possibly amongst the committee).  In addition, several of the computer rating services use the previous season and/or seasons in tabulating the ratings within those services, many of which will be relied upon by writers and coaches in shaping their voting in the polls, and many of which will be relied upon by committee members in the calculus each uses to construct their own top 25 rankings.  

We can debate whether the Chosen 12 have the integrity to follow their mandate, but as you mention, the mandate does say directly and without question that they are to not allow any poll that begins pre-season... which, of course, points most clearly to the coaches' and sportswriters' polls... to influence their deliberation.

As importantly... it's the second part of this that I'd like to address.

While it is true that at least some of the computer ratings like Sagarin take the previous season's ratings and plug them into their formulas, I believe it also is true from the ones I've read about that those normally diminish over the course of the first 4-6 weeks until they are eliminated completely from having any effect.

Essentially, this sounds a lot like a jury trial applied to college football, but with people of some high regard... not just any Joe Schmos off the street... filling those jury seats.

They have instructions from the court as to how they're to execute their duties, and have evidence... videos and statistical data... to analyze. They're then expected to deliberate with each other and, given a process clearly established by the court, come back to the courtroom with a verdict of who is ranked where.

[Buffalo Bop]

Brett McMurphy, ESPN tweets: Tough loss tonight for UConn & Marshall