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The place to talk Marshall University sports! => HerdFans => Topic started by: MIA on November 16, 2017, 09:24:52 PM
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Bad loss - first win for Morehead - but “we are building it the right way”, “wait til next year”, “we are much better on defense”, - I find it interesting those who hold football accountable for their performance, don’t hold basketball accountable for their performance.
Fire away -
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Yes and it won’t be the only one this year. It happens. Football and basketball are completely different. This team will improve, but there will be growing pains for sure.
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Correct they are different. Usually basketball is quicker to rebuild/ re-tool.
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We have 5 legitimate out of conference road games. Looking at them objectively, I figured Morehead as probably one of the 2 best possibilities for a W. So much for that. Looks like Danny's putrid W-L record on the road continues. 30 year old Morehead coach from that national power, Alice Lloyd, apparently had his own set of "Danalytics", including how to play tough in the paint and REBOUND, which our coaches obviously don't believe in. Oh, well, we'll be home next week to play another exempt event "toughie" and mighty Concord, so the green Kool-Aid will soon be flowing again!
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I know ! I had us going undefeated this year too !
Im going to go on record saying we are going to lose at least one , maybe two more games this year .
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I know ! I had us going undefeated this year too !
Im going to go on record saying we are going to lose at least one , maybe two more games this year .
OK, Coach. Now what do you predict for 2018, starting in January? ;D
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! WE ARE STILL GETTING BEAT BY MOREHEAD FREAKING STATE!!!
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Yes that was a very bad loss and there is no way to sugarcoat it. I probably shouldn't even post right now until I cool off. That is 3 years in a row that I went to Morehead and been extremely disappointed all 3 years. There are 2 things this team has got to do if they want to be respectable. 1 is they need to learn how to rebound period. That was the ball game tonight. When you get beat by a smaller team than you, by a 50-27 margin, you have major problems. And 2 and it goes hand in hand, is we have got to get tougher inside. One thing IMO is Peneva, Williams and Koljanin need to get 90% of the minutes at the 4-5 spots. Williams and Koljanin have upside so just leave them in and let them play. Honestly, they need to do rebounding drills for at least half the practices for the next week or more. We can't get a rebound to save or lives. And it has nothing to do with the way we play. One trip down the floor, Morehead missed 5 shots and got the rebound every time until they scored. You can play this system and still rebound the ball. We are almost never in rebounding position because we stand and look and the opposing player goes in and just gets it.
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And BTW Williams and Koljanin were the only bright spots tonight.
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Rebounding comes down, essentially, to one key factor: "EFFORT". Until we start recruiting enough players with some physicality/toughness who are not afraid of contact or afraid to mix it up underneath, then this will be the result. Yes, I know help is on the way next year in that, and the size, departments. Also, Penava had, per Coach's comments, No help tonight in rebounding, etc. However, he has shown great improvement, and should be even better, and stronger, next season. Now some other front line players, one or two, need to step it up, to supplement Penava's play. If they do, then I see their playing time increasing significantly and Milan's dropping off.
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Rebounding comes down, essentially, to one key factor: "EFFORT". Until we start recruiting enough players with some physicality/toughness who are not afraid of contact or afraid to mix it up underneath, then this will be the result. Yes, I know help is on the way next year in that, and the size, departments. Also, Penava had, per Coach's comments, No help tonight in rebounding, etc. However, he has shown great improvement, and should be even better, and stronger, next season. Now some other front line players, one or two, need to step it up, to supplement Penava's play. If they do, then I see their playing time increasing significantly and Milan's dropping off.
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I realize next year should be much better. But I want to see improvement now. There is absolutely no excuse for what happened tonight. They started a lineup of 6'0"-6'0"-6'3"-6'5"-6'7" and totally destroyed us on the boards. We weren't playing a team much more physical and bigger than us, so that doesn't hold water. We simply don't seemed concerned about rebounding and that should be as important as any phase of the game. That single handidly beat us tonight. These guys have got to learn to work for position and get tougher going for the ball. Like someone says, it all comes down to effort and that is one area that we just don't seem to value. Personally I think Koljanin should start up front with Peneva and Williams should be the first off the bench along with Watson when he gets eligible. That would be my 1st 7.
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And BTW Williams and Koljanin were the only bright spots tonight.
I wouldn't say that. Peneva had a few screw ups but also several nice plays.
I do like Williams and Kolijanin.
we were missing the "athletic" ball tonight and rebounding. I know we don't plan to be a strong rebounding team...but come on.
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There is no way you can win on a big stage if you dont rebound the ball. Im just being truthful and morehead is a bad team. All i want to see is improvement in rebounding and toughness inside. If we do those 2 things, we will be fine. If we dont improve those 2 things we can not be a very good team this year. Yes we are going to have games when we score a lot of points. But if you are weak in those 2 areas you cant be a consistant good team. Its just my opinion, but that should be the number 1 focus right now because it is so painfully obvious.
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We lost to Morehead...where are the Danny Defenders...this is a low level loss...This is worse than any loss the football team has had this year...
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it's really hard to put into words just how soft our bigs play. can we please stop the alley-oop attempts in traffic?! there's nobody on this team that's gonna go grab it & throw it down. they're only interested in stuff they can kiss off the glass.
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We lost to Morehead...where are the Danny Defenders...this is a low level loss...This is worse than any loss the football team has had this year...
Agreed but unfortunately UT-Martin was better than any win the football team had this year. Creates quite the dilemma.
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Now matter how we look at it, it is very concerning we are losing to Morehead St at this point in Dan' s tenure. He is light years better than Herrion for sure but I don't think it is unreasonable for us to expect more from our program. We've got to do a lot better. No way we should be losing these games.
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Honestly if we’ve learned anything over Dans run we will lose some OOC games. Turn it on late and make a run. We knew size would be an issue this year. I’m not real worked up over a loss like this when the sad reality is making it to the dance is going on a run in March to win the conference.
For those about football, we have to actually play and win a tough OOC to try and make it to that playoff. Two totally different ways to play the game.
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Honestly if we’ve learned anything over Dans run we will lose some OOC games. Turn it on late and make a run. We knew size would be an issue this year. I’m not real worked up over a loss like this when the sad reality is making it to the dance is going on a run in March to win the conference.
For those about football, we have to actually play and win a tough OOC to try and make it to that playoff. Two totally different ways to play the game.
But what I witnessed in Morehead last night was not about size but t was about heart. I never thought I would see a Danny team being "out-hearted, out want-to" whatever you want to call it, but that is what happened last night. There were numerous loose balls that if a MU player had dove for the ball, it might have made a difference concerning possession but our players stood around and watch. That speaks to heart. I was just disappointed with the overall effort and it's been a while since I could honestly say that about our basketball team.
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Honestly if we’ve learned anything over Dans run we will lose some OOC games. Turn it on late and make a run. We knew size would be an issue this year. I’m not real worked up over a loss like this when the sad reality is making it to the dance is going on a run in March to win the conference.
For those about football, we have to actually play and win a tough OOC to try and make it to that playoff. Two totally different ways to play the game.
Bad loss last night but doesn't change our goal for this season:
Win the CUSA tournament
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So ..... let me make sure I inderstand Correctly. B-ball suffers a horrible loss and “we know they will get better” and isn’t the lack of effort the same thing people skewered football for numerous times, calling for the dismissal of the entire stafff atvone point or another?
Also when people are pissed we don’t get cnsidetrd for any postseason at -large bid to either tournament, remember this loss and it’s affect on RPI and other stat data that goes into determining invitations. Plus numerous recruiting mishaps are excused as welll?
All I am Pointing out is the hypocrisy between the two sports exist. We should expect excellence and accountability from both. No one should get a pass because one coach takes time to chat with a bunch of people practice so they consistently get a pass until “ next year”.
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We put way too much pressure on Elmore and our rebounding skills are atrocious. Gonna be a long year I'm afraid.
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I don’t understand the basketball vs football comments. After all, we are Marshall, right?!? It’s pretty simple I think...people follow the sports differently. I follow basketball closer than football. Some like Doc, some like Dan. Some never gave Doc a chance, some have never given Dan a chance. To me it comes down that I believe Doc has hit his ceiling here and Dan is still rising, maybe just not as quickly as we would like. Yes, a bad loss. We played about as bad as we could and lost by 3. Of Williams, Koljanin, or Bledsoe, someone needs to step up and be a presence in the paint for rebounding. Dan sees the issue and I have no doubt that he will address it. But why must we have the same “outrage” after every sporting loss? Give it a rest...Sports are supposed to be fun.
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Basketball is a marathon. Football is a sprint. Football you are in no position to make a playoff, basketball you have one tournament in March that can get you in.
As far as coaching hypocrisy, you saw a season long meltdown lack of effort. Even in our losses this year that’s one thing no one has criticized. However if Dan were to go say 9-20 with this team with last nights effort you’d probably hear the same things. Up until this point though, Dan has finished strong and people tend to forget how you start when you do well in conference.
Lastly on recruiting, basketball is an entirely different animal. Dan was smart to keep us out of the shoe game lottery. I don’t mind recruiting for system. That’s no diffeeent than what Mike Leach does. The difference is basketball isn’t talkin about how they are the top rated class. We on he board hype them up but you don’t see articles plastered all over about how great the class is.
Again this is a marathon. 30 games compared to 12. A tournament at the end compared to winning every game to make a championship game. It’s apples to oranges. Basketball will have an off night. See WVU game one as an oof moment. If they go under 15 wins might be time to talk, but I’ll say my expectations are limited without better bigs.
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I think that Danny learned his lesson about European players. We are not going after them like we used to. Koljanin played a couple of years in JUCO so he is, at least, accustomed to the way they game is played here. Not seeing the game, I have no idea about the heart of the team. But, I do agree that when you get thrashed on the boards like we did last night, the effort is not there. Also, let me say that height doesn't always matter. One of the best rebounders I can remember for Marshall was Terrell Baines. I believe he was 6'6" or so. But, he had that nasty streak in him to get the rebounds. Also, Dennis Tinnon had that mean streak in him and he was 6'8". So, being 6'10" or taller doesn't mean you will always have a rebounding edge. It has been mentioned that our big guys have to play tougher and it showed last night. Also, I can't understand how a person can hit a 3 point shot at a good clip but cannot make free throws. That just boggles my mind. Also, next home game, watch the layup drills. More time is spent on trying to do fancy things with layups instead of going strong. I realize it is just drills but, I have heard, you play like you practice.
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Well first, i am not going to blame peneva. 21 pts and 10 rebounds i will take every night. But he has zero help. That is why williams, bledsoe and koljanin should get all the minutes with him imo so they can get the experience and toughen up to the game. Also watson will help because he has a rebounding mindset from the guard position.but this team needs to have it drilled into them over and over that rebounding has to be a main focus.
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I never seen the game, but MU shot 46% for the game. From the comments about getting slaughtered on the boards 49-28 by a smaller Morehead team it comes down to (1) being in poor rebounding position, (2) lack of personal grit to get the rebound, or (3) combination of both.
Are we still playing that all 5 players on the perimeter jacking 3s with no players in rebounding position offense?
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Well first, i am not going to blame peneva. 21 pts and 10 rebounds i will take every night. But he has zero help. That is why williams, bledsoe and koljanin should get all the minutes with him imo so they can get the experience and toughen up to the game. Also watson will help because he has a rebounding mindset from the guard position.but this team needs to have it drilled into them over and over that rebounding has to be a main focus.
Koljanin should start, and Mijovic should only get minutes to spell Penava (5-10 minutes per game). After that, Williams should be the one to spell Koljanin, as he has a big upside. Let these guys play and start to gel
My .02
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so being out rebounded is either a lack of effort or lack of talent or both? Have we ever been a good rebounding team since Dan’s arrival? Look I want him to succeed in the worst way, and have backed him with donations. He is a tremendous teacher of the game, but as a talent evaluator and being able to acquire talent I have seen more misses than hits, not home runs grant you, just hits. A school like Marshall can not afford to have one third of its roster not contiribute at all which is what has occurred over the last 5 years.
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So ..... let me make sure I inderstand Correctly. B-ball suffers a horrible loss and “we know they will get better” and isn’t the lack of effort the same thing people skewered football for numerous times, calling for the dismissal of the entire stafff atvone point or another?
Also when people are pissed we don’t get cnsidetrd for any postseason at -large bid to either tournament, remember this loss and it’s affect on RPI and other stat data that goes into determining invitations. Plus numerous recruiting mishaps are excused as welll?
All I am Pointing out is the hypocrisy between the two sports exist. We should expect excellence and accountability from both. No one should get a pass because one coach takes time to chat with a bunch of people practice so they consistently get a pass until “ next year”.
When DD loses 75% of his games in a season with an unmotivated underperforming team, I’ll be advocating his head on the same shelf I want Doc’s head on.
I base my posts on what I see and believe. You won’t see me creating a new name and account so I can come on here and post silly sh!t without the burden of my past postings as you have so obviously done. Three posts under this new ID and every one trying to defend Doc by tearing down DD, that is hypocritical and I’m sure your old ID is already as well known for its hypocritical posts as this new ID is clearly going to be.
Your premise is as dishonest as your approach.
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I'm not excusing our horrid rebounding effort, but this is the first loss where losing Terrence Thompson has hurt. It's hard to lose a starter inside and not feel it.
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it's really hard to put into words just how soft our bigs play. can we please stop the alley-oop attempts in traffic?! there's nobody on this team that's gonna go grab it & throw it down. they're only interested in stuff they can kiss off the glass.
I think we found last night that Williams will throw it down.
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Now matter how we look at it, it is very concerning we are losing to Morehead St at this point in Dan' s tenure. He is light years better than Herrion for sure but I don't think it is unreasonable for us to expect more from our program. We've got to do a lot better. No way we should be losing these games.
Agreed. But this is truly the youngest team for DD other than his first year. This is the first time his roster truly turned over during his tenure. I think last years team would have beat Morehead.
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Something to think about. This system isn’t meant for rebounds either which might hurt us some because you don’t see as much up tempo transition like you do in the NBA. Look at Brad Stevens, Greg Pop or even Mike. Their teams often get out rebounded and still win. Capella gets his boards on D. They sacrifice offensive boards which usually gets the other teams number inflated. Last nights number is inexcusable but we aren’t trying to be a big physical in the paint team to get boards.
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First off I dont post under different accounts as I rarely post at all, so quit trying to deflect. second if I am Trying to tear him down why do I pour $$$$ into his program? As for losing 75% of his games better be careful as he has lost 52% of his games overall.
I asking legit question after all these years where is that s program heading if we still loose games like Morehead or other OVC teams? I thought the objective is post season play?
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What I saw lacking last night was not output or attitude; rather, unfortunately it was pure speed and physicality. There, unfortunately, was a glaring difference in pure basketball "overall" talent. And Morehead was very well coached by their young coach, prepared to beat Marshall. It mean something to them.
Because Elmore couldn't get his normal 3s, he also tried to do an awful lot that cost us turnovers and left his other team mates out of position many times.
Will this all get corrected? IMHO some will, but the talent pool is very thin at MU right now. Their game will improve with Danny's coaching, but their overall talent (leaping, being physical, playing with speed that they don't possess), I don't see that happening any time soon.
Although it sounds stupid to some, I'd move C.J. to point, John to the shooting guard, Peneva to the shooting forward, Milan to a high post center, and put Janson Williams or Joni at the other forward. Jared West showed he's not quite ready to play against such speed and talent yet. A sub role seems better for him right now; so he can learn a bit by sight rather than by error. IMHO Milan can't rebound from too far inside because his feet aren't mobile enough to do so, but he might be better at banging the O boards from further outside the circle.
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I sure am glad the internet wasnt around when Hucks team lost to UC , Chatleston , not Cincinnati , that would have been uuuuuugly .
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Yeah but K Tyler had 40......a better shooter than anyone on this team
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so being out rebounded is either a lack of effort or lack of talent or both? Have we ever been a good rebounding team since Dan’s arrival? Look I want him to succeed in the worst way, and have backed him with donations. He is a tremendous teacher of the game, but as a talent evaluator and being able to acquire talent I have seen more misses than hits, not home runs grant you, just hits. A school like Marshall can not afford to have one third of its roster not contiribute at all which is what has occurred over the last 5 years.
Look, I am unhappy as anyone with last nights performance. And this year kind of hurt because we got caught with a young thin and long inside game and Bennett not being eligible hurt bad. And I hate to talk about next year also. But we know we have 2 6'10 250 and 330 kids coming in that can play. But I just Hope Danny puts a lot more emphasis on inside toughness and rebounding going forward. Because that is the 2 things that have been our weakness and all that will hold a DD team back especially in the future. And I agree and have said Williams needs to play a lot along with Koljanin. Both showed flashes last night of what they could be. Koljanin in the first half mad some nice aggressive drives to the hole and also had a couple nice passes doing it. And Williams did go after a couple rebounds with aggressiveness. Milan should just give a few minutes for a breather and let these younger guys play and get the majority of play imo. Losing is one thing, but that game last night should have never been a loss. You have got to get a body on someone and block out and last night we never got a body on anyone. That part of the game has got to change. and i'm sure DD will be working on that.
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What I saw lacking last night was not output or attitude; rather, unfortunately it was pure speed and physicality. There, unfortunately, was a glaring difference in pure basketball "overall" talent. And Morehead was very well coached by their young coach, prepared to beat Marshall. It mean something to them.
Because Elmore couldn't get his normal 3s, he also tried to do an awful lot that cost us turnovers and left his other team mates out of position many times.
Will this all get corrected? IMHO some will, but the talent pool is very thin at MU right now. Their game will improve with Danny's coaching, but their overall talent (leaping, being physical, playing with speed that they don't possess), I don't see that happening any time soon.
Although it sounds stupid to some, I'd move C.J. to point, John to the shooting guard, Peneva to the shooting forward, Milan to a high post center, and put Janson Williams or Joni at the other forward. Jared West showed he's not quite ready to play against such speed and talent yet. A sub role seems better for him right now; so he can learn a bit by sight rather than by error. IMHO Milan can't rebound from too far inside because his feet aren't mobile enough to do so, but he might be better at banging the O boards from further outside the circle.
Danny has mentioned time and time again we do NOT have positions. With this offense we flow. Every player knows what every body does. We do NOT have a high post. As you see, we don't ever post up. That may change slightly when Iran becomes eligible.
West is ready, IMO and has shown it with lock down defense and intensity. Morehead played well, no doubt. I'm sure this team will be like all others that Danny has had. They get better as the season progresses. RPI at this point is not an issue. We will get only 1 bid in CUSA. The key is to win the tournament. I think you saw in our team last year, even though we came in seeded #6, we played for the championship. Obviously we all hope for a higher seed so we don't have to play 4 games in Frisco.
As we also have been told that it will not be a shock to be up by 20 and be down a few minutes later and vice versa. That's the way we play.
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So ..... let me make sure I inderstand Correctly. B-ball suffers a horrible loss and “we know they will get better” and isn’t the lack of effort the same thing people skewered football for numerous times, calling for the dismissal of the entire stafff atvone point or another?
Also when people are pissed we don’t get cnsidetrd for any postseason at -large bid to either tournament, remember this loss and it’s affect on RPI and other stat data that goes into determining invitations. Plus numerous recruiting mishaps are excused as welll?
All I am Pointing out is the hypocrisy between the two sports exist. We should expect excellence and accountability from both. No one should get a pass because one coach takes time to chat with a bunch of people practice so they consistently get a pass until “ next year”.
I don't think its hypocrisy at all. Basketball does get better as the year goes by. Danny has proven that the 3 years he has been here. That is a fact. Football doesn't seem to get better as the year goes by. Are we any better right now than the Miami game? I would argue we were better against NC ST and UC than we have been lately. But that is JMO
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I guess in all fairness.......the 71-72' top 10 Marshall team loss to Morehead St. that year also.
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I guess in all fairness.......the 71-72' top 10 Marshall team loss to Morehead St. that year also.
Morehead has had some really good teams thru the years. Probably more than we have had. But last night was not one of them. Matter of fact that was one of the worst morehead teams I have seen play.
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What I saw lacking last night was not output or attitude; rather, unfortunately it was pure speed and physicality. There, unfortunately, was a glaring difference in pure basketball "overall" talent. And Morehead was very well coached by their young coach, prepared to beat Marshall. It mean something to them.
Because Elmore couldn't get his normal 3s, he also tried to do an awful lot that cost us turnovers and left his other team mates out of position many times.
Will this all get corrected? IMHO some will, but the talent pool is very thin at MU right now. Their game will improve with Danny's coaching, but their overall talent (leaping, being physical, playing with speed that they don't possess), I don't see that happening any time soon.
Although it sounds stupid to some, I'd move C.J. to point, John to the shooting guard, Peneva to the shooting forward, Milan to a high post center, and put Janson Williams or Joni at the other forward. Jared West showed he's not quite ready to play against such speed and talent yet. A sub role seems better for him right now; so he can learn a bit by sight rather than by error. IMHO Milan can't rebound from too far inside because his feet aren't mobile enough to do so, but he might be better at banging the O boards from further outside the circle.
Then CJ better learn to handle the ball better.
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Someone said this offense isn't built for rebounding. That may be true. But, no way we should give up as many offensive rebounds as we did last night. DD said Peneva didn't get any help last night underneath when it came to rebounding. But, from what I've read on here and what I heard last night, it sounds like our guards let too much penetration happen leaving our big men either exposed or easy baskets. I also agree about us getting better as the season goes on. I was in Birmingham last year and saw us play some of the best basketball that team played all year. This team has the potential to be dangerous at that time. I think a top four finish is needed if we are going to win the conference tournament. I thought we would go 10-4 during the non-conference part of our schedule. I still hold to that. But, this was not one of the losses I was counting.
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Actually 15 ooc games counting the first two ex. And Concord wont count either on our record.
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Don't think there is any other way to put it. We should not lose that game last night. I have waited almost 24 hours to post. If we want to get to post season, these are the games we have to win. I made a comment at half, that if we rebound we win. We didn't rebound. Very disappointing.
Not that I will give up on this team..we have some positives. Just have to keep working and understand rebounding is positioning and desire. Learn and move on.
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If we want to get to post season, these are the games we have to win.
I must disagree.
If we want to get to post season, the only games that matter are the ones played in the tournament.
Don't have to like it, but you really should face it.
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I was expecting an L, just like I expected an L against EKU last year. I think we will be alright in conference.
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Agreed. But this is truly the youngest team for DD other than his first year. This is the first time his roster truly turned over during his tenure. I think last years team would have beat Morehead.
Morehead State doesn't have one senior on their roster. Their coach is in his first full season as head coach. He was an interim coach last year.
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I can't help but think winning road games are building blocks that help come tournament time. Winning these types of games gives you confidence to win later. Fortunately, we are still early in the season and have time to build confidence in games to come.
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Danny has mentioned time and time again we do NOT have positions. With this offense we flow. Every player knows what every body does. We do NOT have a high post. As you see, we don't ever post up. That may change slightly when Iran becomes eligible.
West is ready, IMO and has shown it with lock down defense and intensity. Morehead played well, no doubt. I'm sure this team will be like all others that Danny has had. They get better as the season progresses. RPI at this point is not an issue. We will get only 1 bid in CUSA. The key is to win the tournament. I think you saw in our team last year, even though we came in seeded #6, we played for the championship. Obviously we all hope for a higher seed so we don't have to play 4 games in Frisco.
As we also have been told that it will not be a shock to be up by 20 and be down a few minutes later and vice versa. That's the way we play.
Good luck winning a tournament when you are getting out rebounded by 20 or more. Not gonna happen.
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Danny may not label positions, but let's be honest here. Look at the sets; there are wings, point guards, shooting forwards, etc. Of course we don't play a high post; I'm suggesting may since our non-position center can't catch the ball down low that we move him out of all that traffic to see what will/would happen.
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AFA Herd BB this loss, taken in a vacuum, is not a great big deal and might actually be helpful in tis team's improvement.
The problem, in IMO, is that it's yet another OOC loss for the CUSA where the conference record last night was piss poor. Have to win your share against the A-10, Colonial, Big South,etc if you aspire to be a 'two-bid' league.
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Something to think about. This system isn’t meant for rebounds either which might hurt us some because you don’t see as much up tempo transition like you do in the NBA. Look at Brad Stevens, Greg Pop or even Mike. Their teams often get out rebounded and still win. Capella gets his boards on D. They sacrifice offensive boards which usually gets the other teams number inflated. Last nights number is inexcusable but we aren’t trying to be a big physical in the paint team to get boards.
First, our team is a far cry from a squad that is anything closing to having NBA caliber talent, so such comparisons are meaningless.
Second, if we aren't trying to be a "big physical in the paint team" then why in the hell do we have 2 6'10" players weighing anywhere from 260# to 330# sitting out? Personally, I believe Danny realizes that his teams have to have some kind of consistent effective post play in order to make his system even more efficient and productive, including the areas of rebounding and defense!