Topic: Minter talks the talk

[herdwriter]

Minter took over a Cincinnati program that had one winning season from 1983 through 1993 and a 40-79-2 record in that 11-season span. One-fifth of those wins came in Minter's predecessor's final season (Tim Murphy, 8-3, 1993). Minter coached at Cincinnati for 10 seasons and he had five winning seasons (plus one .500 season) and four bowl appearances, including the school's first since 1951. He also left the program better than he found it -- under Mark Dantonio and Brian Kelly, the Bearcats are 40-23 with four winning seasons and four bowl appearances, including one BCS (last season's Orange Bowl) in the five seasons since Minter's departure. Frankly, I think Minter would make a pretty dang good head coach at Marshall if Snyder doesn't succeed. The Herd certainly could do far worse.

[Thundering Accountant]

Minter took over a Cincinnati program that had one winning season from 1983 through 1993 and a 40-79-2 record in that 11-season span. One-fifth of those wins came in Minter's predecessor's final season (Tim Murphy, 8-3, 1993). Minter coached at Cincinnati for 10 seasons and he had five winning seasons (plus one .500 season) and four bowl appearances, including the school's first since 1951. He also left the program better than he found it -- under Mark Dantonio and Brian Kelly, the Bearcats are 40-23 with four winning seasons and four bowl appearances, including one BCS (last season's Orange Bowl) in the five seasons since Minter's departure. Frankly, I think Minter would make a pretty dang good head coach at Marshall if Snyder doesn't succeed. The Herd certainly could do far worse.

Yet the guy was fired. If he was meeting expectations he would not have been fired at Cincy.

I don't mean this to be a dig at Marshall, but if Minter was that great of a coach he wouldn't be our DC this year. Please don't take that the wrong way, because I think Minter is a good DC and a steal for the program. However, he would not be here if he didn't fail elsewhere and have blemishes on his resume. 

I didn't mean to take a dig at Minter, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation.

[2xBison]

I think Minter would be a good choice if Snyder doesn't succeed.

what is not talked about enough is, where this program has been talent wise right at the time the schedule increased 10 fold over the pruett years.

[Thundering Accountant]

I think Minter would be a good choice if Snyder doesn't succeed.

what is not talked about enough is, where this program has been talent wise right at the time the schedule increased 10 fold over the pruett years.

With the exception of OOC games, I am not sure I buy this point.

There isn't much difference between Tulane and Akron and Toledo and ECU.  Sure, may be C-USA doesn't have the bottom dwellers the MAC did (though SMU and UAB are MAC like), but overall I don't think the C-USA now is much better than the MAC 2000-2004.  Hell, the MAC dominated C-USA at the start of the decade and every Herd fan argued that the MAC was better than C-USA.

Also, SMU, UTEP, Rice and Tulsa all came from the WAC, a conference we all believed was beneath the MAC during our stay there.


I agree with people saying our talent level was way below that of other C-USA teams but C-USA is not much better, if at all, than the MAC was from 2000-2004.

[2xBison]

well, throw the conferences out, i'm not worried about debating the conference.  i think i know that answer.

look at our teams in 05, 06 and 07 compare them to the late 90s and 00 - 03 or 04.  to me, there is no comparison in talent, that's before you consider depth.

in 09, potentially, we could be comparable to those good teams.  we'll see.

[Thundering Accountant]

well, throw the conferences out, i'm not worried about debating the conference.  i think i know that answer.

look at our teams in 05, 06 and 07 compare them to the late 90s and 00 - 03 or 04.  to me, there is no comparison in talent, that's before you consider depth.

in 09, potentially, we could be comparable to those good teams.  we'll see.

Never disagreed with your assement of depth or talent. The fact that Jeremy Frazie, a walk-on from Morehead St, got substantial playing time is enough for me to concede a lack of talent and depth.

I just disagreed with your statement that the schedule is 10 times harder. I just don't see that being a viable excuse for the past few seasons. Pruett played some tough OOC games too and some of Snyder's OOC games have been against beatable BCS opponents (Wisky, Miami, K-State).

[herdman]

I think Minter would be a good choice if Snyder doesn't succeed.

what is not talked about enough is, where this program has been talent wise right at the time the schedule increased 10 fold over the pruett years.

But you also have to take into account the step up in conferences. Your talent should get better. It is all relative.

[Thundering Accountant]

But you also have to take into account the step up in conferences. Your talent should get better. It is all relative.

While in C-USA we have recruited at the C-USA level.

The problem was, Pruett didn't recruit at the MAC level for a few years.

Except for the bowl exposure and playing "name" teams, I am not sure the move was a step up.  The Toledo, BGSU, NIU and Miami teams of 2000-2005 would compete at the top of the conference.

[Max]

Minter would be a good interim head coach until a better coach was found.  Some guys are better coordinators than they are head coaches, and I think Minter falls into that category.  This is how expectations at Marshall have dropped since Snyder's hire.  To think a coach who has a lifetime record of 53-63-1 with three bowl losses would be considered a strong candidate speaks volumes of where we are at as a program and fan base.  A coach with that record would have been laughed at if he wanted consideration after Pruett left.  We can do better.

[Buffalo Bop]

Max, those are my thoughts too.

[MarshallGrad]

Here we go again with the "step up" rationalizations. Over the last five years, every single empirical measure has the MAC and CUSA almost dead even. At some point in in the last five years, Sagarin had one or the other conference a point or two over the other. Over the five years, head to head was almost even. Over the five years, win/loss records against BCS teams was almost even. There has not been any significant measurable difference in football "power" between the two over the last five years. This past year, CUSA had the edge over the MAC in head to head, and also had the most significant edge in Sagarin rating compared to the previous four years. I hope that trend continues. If it does, we can then start talking for real about step up and "significantly" better.

The move to CUSA was a good one for many reasons. I am glad we made it. However, knowing it was a good move doesn't require that I rationalize about some big step up in strength (said with all due respect to those fans that, despite the lack of hard numbers, are able to just "see the significant difference" on the field). An empirically supported argument about a "step up" would have been to Mt West or BE. Those would be steps up we could discuss topics such as recruiting to another level.

Here is hoping that last years move up in sagarin ranking and bowl wins for CUSA is on a trend. If so, we really will be able to talk about stepping up. We MUST do our part by beating Bowling Green this year.

[2xBison]

herdman, i don't disagree, talent should get better and i think it has.  with fB, it takes time and when you primarily recuit HS and RS most players it takes time. that's why i think last year was snyders big failure.  we should have had 6-7 wins with our talent last year.

on to schedule, i think the conference was a step up.  in terms of speed and the lower end is tougher than the macs lower end.  the mac teams had caught and past us at the end of the pruett era, not good.

pruett rarely played two BCS teams in his time.  in 2000 we had mediocre ones in NC and MSU.  In, 03 and 04 we played two tough ones each.  kstate, UT in 03 and UGA and OSU in 04.  We have played two tough ones every year under the current coach.  additionally, pruett had a year or two with two 1-aas

[raf66]

I don't agree with the assessment that the MAC is = CUSA.  I've been to so many MAC road games during the Herd's return to the MAC and while we certainly pulled the conference up by its bootstraps, it had/still has major problems with talent, community support and "perception".  I've been to most of the "big name" MAC stadiums where the home team was lucky to pull in 5-7,000 people, and in most instances when they did get more than that it was because they were playing "big bad Marshall" and the school or athletic department did a canned goods for tickets promotion.  :)

Don't get me wrong, the MAC schools are (for the most part) D1 programs with the same number of schollies as other schools.  But, while there are many CUSA players who dream of playing for ECU, UTEP, Tulane, Southern Miss, to name but a few, there are, I would theorize, very few MAC players who dreamed of playing for Akron, Eastern Mich, or Buffalo.  These are players who, by and large, got one acceptance letter from a D1 program.  What's really sad is the majority of the MAC schools' fans are  MUCH BIGGER Big 10 fans (specifically OSU, Michigan and Michigan State).  CUSA scores some players who want to be there.  ECU and Southern Miss, for instance, battle with (and in some cases prevail against) NC State, Miss State and others for recruits.  Not so at most (all?) MAC schools, who compete with one another and the Youngstown States of the world for recruits.

There's obviously no way to categorically prove which conference is superior, but as to the original point about Minter and his "talking the talk", I think it's fantastic and is sorely missed since BP left.  However, you can only say those things once or twice before the natives get restless and require you to prove it on the field.  Let's hope he/we can.  

I do think our schedule is far superior to what it used to be.  We used to play one marquee OOC game while in the MAC (the exceptions being in '00 and '03, when we played two), now we play two every year and three during the '06 season.  That is in addition to our CUSA schedule.  Again we'd play one BIG team and then a schedule of pasty (mostly) MAC schools vs. now, where we have two or three BIG teams and a schedule of at least four pretty difficult CUSA teams.  Far more difficult schedule, IMHO.

Go Herd!

[Blade]

herdman, i don't disagree, talent should get better and i think it has.  with fB, it takes time and when you primarily recuit HS and RS most players it takes time. that's why i think last year was snyders big failure.  we should have had 6-7 wins with our talent last year.

on to schedule, i think the conference was a step up.  in terms of speed and the lower end is tougher than the macs lower end.  the mac teams had caught and past us at the end of the pruett era, not good.

pruett rarely played two BCS teams in his time.  in 2000 we had mediocre ones in NC and MSU.  In, 03 and 04 we played two tough ones each.  kstate, UT in 03 and UGA and OSU in 04.  We have played two tough ones every year under the current coach.  additionally, pruett had a year or two with two 1-aas

2X, I understand your commitment to prove it was Pruett that was responsible for this turndown in performance but don't get carried away.  ::)

- Conveniently substituting "Pruett" for "probation" doens't make it so.  The prop jobs program was implemented well before Pruett took the helm. I also feel the charges were exagerated by the NCAA investigator.  While he is to share repsonsibility for our dilemna, he wasn't the only rat on the ship.

-  The first year of probation absolutely hammered our program, with Marshall losing 28 seniors and having a recruiting class of 11 players.  In the final probation year, our roster, at its lowest, had 53 scholarship players out of 85.  To say Pruett was solely responsible for the depth and lack of talent on the team at the time of his departure just isn't so, imo.

-  Pruett didn't "leave us" high and dry - he lost his job due to a political ploy.  He had no intention of leaving, nor did he give the BOG much choice.  Just one of those things.  Pruett, imo, would never purposely harm Marshall University.

- In the Pruet years, there was only one 12-game schedule - 2003, yet 5 of the 8 years we played 2 BCS teams.  Other than 1998, where Marshall was struggling getting a D1A schedule in place, only 2001 has 2-1aa teams on the schedule. Why?  TCU was canceled due to 9/11.  In the only 12-game schedule, Marshall played a ranked Tennessee and Kansas State, D1A Troy and randed D1AA Hofstra, much like the schedules today.  The OOC schedule was as tough as the modified schedule of today.  Had Marcum not canceled the UT and Miami series, you may have had a point.

I understand your point but making it more than it is doesn't help it - at least not to me.  8)

[2xBison]

Blade

I loved Pruett.  He definately was more fun at a QB club meeting and I liked his bold statements and agressive style of play.  But we all know, bold statements and agressive is easier  to do when you out class most of your opponents, which we did.

I just think Pruett let the ball drop, and it wasn't just probation, it was non stop average to weak classes in the early 2000s up to the final class.  maybe he had good excuses, he was always out begging for money.  i've also heard the stories of ex players saying they would host a recuit, the parents would be there and not see pruett all weekend.  not there, on a cruise or what ever.

i know the jobs for prop deal started pre pruett....but it happened and we got busted under him.

maybe i was wrong on the 1-aa teams, that was going from memory.

as far as BCS teams we played.

1997 - wvu??  the bowl game against Ole Miss was post season.

1998 - weak So Carolina.  that's one.  we played UL in a bowl, they were CUSA.

1999 - solid clemson.  that's one.  we played BYU in a bowl.  mid major.

2000 - two mediocre teams that I mentioned.  NC and MSU.

2001 - only florida was bcs.

2002 - va tech.

2003 and 04, already covered two bcs teams.

like you said blade, don't make who he played more than it was ;)  he had three years that he had two bcs games in regular season.

[Blade]

Well, I'm not going to continue to argue schedule with you - especially when you see no difference in the an 11-game versus a 12-game  reagular season schedule and prefer to ignore the post season opponents (I would too if I were supporting the scheduling under Snyder). 

As for your primary blame for the program of despair on Bobby - sobeit.  Me?  I know of plenty of persons, places and things which can share the blame.

I think, when it's all said and done, most fans underestimate how detrimental the probation was to the program.  I also think that with an experienced coach, we could have lessened the severity with perhaps a 1-2 game win swing and perhaps a couple bowl game opportunities.  Snyder did hit the perfect storm, no doubt (trying to learn a new position with no depth, new conference, 12-game season fewer skill players).  Blame who you wish (not that you need my approval to do so).

[ThunderValley]

The MAC or C-USA..it would have made no difference the past 4 years, we have been bottom dwellers in C-USA. We certainly would not have been at the top of the MAC. Either way we have been getting our (@/:; handed to us.

I like the outlook Minter has. He is not putting out excuses.

[raf66]

And I hope my comments didn't lead anyone to the conclusion that I'm defending Snyder and/or would take him over BP.  These last 4 years have been miserable throwbacks to the mid-late 70's to early 80's that I recall as a yute and that I had always hoped that we'd never return to.  But when you throw in Snyder's bad coaching (imho) with all the circumstances that existed to begin the '05 season (new conf, 12 game upgraded sched, late arriving coach, probation and lack of depth), I agree that it made for the "perfect storm". 

[2xBison]

I'm not trying to lay all the blame on BP.  he sure shares in it.  I agree, probation was devastating.  But, it was even more devastating when you look at what we brought in....pruett didn't bring in much the last 3 -4 years.

I know there were things going on with his resignation, but I don't think he was forced out and I do think it was easier for him to leave knowing what was in the cupboard.  nice timing too.

[DJdaHERDfan]

just win baby

that will make everything right in herd world again

[lexkyherdfan]

Well, I'm not going to continue to argue schedule with you - especially when you see no difference in the an 11-game versus a 12-game  reagular season schedule and prefer to ignore the post season opponents (I would too if I were supporting the scheduling under Snyder). 

As for your primary blame for the program of despair on Bobby - sobeit.  Me?  I know of plenty of persons, places and things which can share the blame.

I think, when it's all said and done, most fans underestimate how detrimental the probation was to the program.  I also think that with an experienced coach, we could have lessened the severity with perhaps a 1-2 game win swing and perhaps a couple bowl game opportunities.  Snyder did hit the perfect storm, no doubt (trying to learn a new position with no depth, new conference, 12-game season fewer skill players).  Blame who you wish (not that you need my approval to do so).

Blade, in my opinion you should no include Post Season when comparing schedules as those games are not in your control.  Regular season games you do control.  When comparing schedules it should be on Regular season games.  The fact is we rarely played more than 1 BCS team a year while we were in the MAC.  One year we had Temple but they were about as much of a BCS team as Buffalo from a competitive standpoint.  I see where 2X is going.  In games that our AD or Coach could control, we played a lot "tougher" OOC teams the last several years.  From 1997-2004 we played 25 non-conference games (not including bowls) and 12 (48%) of those were against BCS teams.  2005-2008 we played 15 non-conference games and 11 (73.3%) of those were BCS games.  It is clear to me that our schedules are tougher now.  That doesn't mean I think we were successful because of our schedule either. 

I am not saying that to defend Snyder at all.  Hell I would have loved to seen our "glory day" teams played some of the teams we have played recently.  Our teams were very tough then no matter who we played.  I would be willing to bet those teams would have won several of the tough games we have played recently.  Pruett was awesome and I loved the man but things did slip while we were on probation.  A classic example at how things were going was in our last Bowl game in Texas.  That team was very dysfunctional.  I honestly think he probably got more of the wrap than he should but he was the man in charge.  I wish all the time that we hadn't got in trouble and Pruett would have got the things that he wanted and he wouldn't have left.  We are probably fortunate as most schools that go on major probation end up cutting lose the Coach.

I will also say I think had Pruett still been coach I believe we would have won a few more games that we have won in recent years.  He had the coaching experience that would have gotten us through some of those games where as a first time coach may struggle.

[Blade]

I think I have a pretty clear understanding of why and how Pruett left.  That said, it didn't take ESP to see a person that didn't want to "retire" when they saw him do so on TV.  Kind of emotional for a rat bailing from a sinking ship, don't ya think?

As for the schedule, I can't argue with something so speculative.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.  In support of both your arguments, teams new to 1A have to build OOC schedules from scratch and they take time.  I would like to think that we would build them stronger as we developed relationships with upper conferences.  I think that we did that before we started canceling top games.  Normally a program on the way up wouldn't have a problem with schedule progression.

As for BP laying down on the job?  Walk in the man's shoes.  Usually when a team goes on probation, schollies are cut, numbers dwindle, and many players that may have been interested in Marshall go elsewhere.  Don't you think that every MAC team used probation to gain an edge on recruiting in those 4 years?  Can't the underlying problem just be primarily probation?  Do we always have to elect a villian to hang?

Last point and I'm through; Folks that try to realistically support Mark don't have to tear down Bobby to do so.  I support this program today without making negative assumptions about previous administrations.  Hope I didn't offend you guys.  Certainly wasn't my intention if I did.

[Dreamherd]

CUSA has more players in the NFL than the MAC, but the MAC has more higher profile guys.  Minter had fast, undersized defenses at UC.  He knew how to put a LB corp together.  If we are 1-4 or 1-5, then Minter becomes the interm and coaches the last 1/2 of the season for the job.  No doubt we would win more games with this season with Minter calling all the shots.

[2xBison]

I'm not trying to tear BP down.  Loved the man.  1996 - 2004 was the greatest run I've experienced as a Marshall fan in any sport.  BP was great to hear speak, to watch coach a game.

I don't know that objectively evaluating what was left to work and with immediately after is departure is tearing the man down.  I think most anyone out side of the program would agree bad timing on his departure, that's just a fact.

I'm not trying to overly support Snyder either, just giving him the benefit of the doubt those first three years when talent was lean.  He failed the first year (2008) that I felt like he had pretty good talent, not a good sign.  This year, I think he has very good talent, hope he gets it done think he'll get it done but sure wouldn't bet my life on it.