Topic: Interesting Observation On Dan vs Kim Coaching Styles

[Flat Tire 2]

I read the below on another message board and thought the author made a very interesting observation about Dan's "coaching" after Marshall WB won the SBC. When your shots don't fail, you need to have a backup plan.

I wonder what are the thoughts of other posters on the below statement. I thought the poster made a great observation about Dan. Dan in his post game  pressers just says we are not shooting well or throws the players under the bus when the other team wins. I don't  think Kim would ever do that.

"For the people who get mad at Dan for his lack of defense this game is a perfect example of why people gripe about it. Our ladies couldn?t throw it in the ocean from 3, didn't shoot that great from 2, didn't shoot free throws especially well but when you create 38 turnovers you can win games where you don?t shoot well. Even against good teams. I was really proud at how often they faced adversary and could have thrown in the towel and they came roaring back. Just a tribute to a great coach and a great team. Great job Herd!! Tourney bound!!"

[FilmJunky]

The difference in Dan vs Kim is the women generate enough extra possessions (turnovers and offensive rebounds) to make up for the bad shooting nights. Looking at the box score after the game yesterday it's mind blowing that it was even close lol Either team could have won by 25 if they did a couple things better.

[herd2win]

It is called effort.  Combine a good strategy with max effort and this is what you get.

[thunderingon]

I think the coaching styles are actually pretty similar in ways. Get off a bunch of 3's and win the shot/possession battle and she doesn't call many timeouts.  A couple of those things, DD gets heavily criticized for.  The difference this year is seen on the defensive and rebounding execution.  When the shots aren't falling, like yesterday, Kim's teams made up for it. The substitution pattern makes no sense to me...but it works and it takes some special buy-in from players.  That's obviously a big difference as well.

[jdonaccbus]

I just think the approach from recruiting, to roster management, to early pre-season practices......there is just a huge difference.

Caldwell in her presser yesterday noted that during pre-season practices that her coaching mentality was: "hate me now, love me later". She has also noted during the season that her practices are harder than the games which makes the games easier. She also handled the early season adversity well in her press conferences. She never crumbled. She stood strong and was a real leader which I think rubs off on the team. She never threw Scott under the bus......handled it in-house and provided her a way out.....we still did fine. She didn't use Scott leaving as any excuse unlike Dan who used Taylor leaving forever and ever.....even though Dan had more time to find a replacement for Taylor than Caldwell had for Scott. Caldwell has the "next women up" mentality.

Dan talked of pre-season of "having fun"........"making the players feel good about themselves"........mocking coaches who use the maximum time for practice by saying he only needed an hour-and-a-half each day. His preparation approach along with poor roster management caused the team to lose 8 games out the final 9. We had plenty of excuses along the way: Taylor left too late, the OOC was too tough (even though the women were on the road in non-conference more than the men), fans were a problem, social media is a problem, not enough energy from the bench, assistants weren't game planning properly. It was excuse after excuse after excuse. I never saw a sense of urgency either up until the next-to-last game. Just easy money mentality. Dan is also out of touch. He talks of running a program like that of the late '60s. It is the most absurd notion I have ever heard and it is killing our men's program. His practice groupies buy into it tooth-and-nail. But two more years of this and this program will be as low as a D1 program can get. I have never seen any thing like how he manages players and a roster.

Don't give me that it is any harder to win a men's championship than a women's championship crap. Those women won yesterday on mental toughness and a determination not to lose, even when they couldn't make shots. That rubbed off from the coach. She is the definition of a real leader. She had adversity this season.....just as much as the men's team. She just got after day after day after day and never wavered on her system. I just don't think our fanbase could have asked any more out of a coach than what Kim Caldwell brought us.

[Flat Tire 2]

When I played basketball from youth leagues through high school, the good coaches always emphasized defense and rebounding. They said those things would help the team overcome a poor shooting night. A lot of it is desire, but having a coach that emphasizes and works on that part of the game is very important. ODU was the taller team, but Marshall found a way to overcome the height disadvantage and poor shooting to win the game with defense and rebounding.

A coach also needs to recruit hard nose players who have the desire to rebound; play good defense and have the will to win. Most good teams play defense and rebound well, the bad teams don't do those things. Again, it is the player's commitment  and a coach who demands those qualities.

You can certainly see the difference between MB and WB basketball programs at Marshall. It all comes down to good coaching and Kim is the better coach.

[svherd]

Its' all about effort, hard work, and focus. The girls staff and team run laps around the men's program in these areas, and it shows in the result. Dan can make excuses and play the golly gee card all day. People seem to eat it up for whatever reason, and dismiss the real issues.

[MUonium]

I think the coaching styles are actually pretty similar in ways. Get off a bunch of 3's and win the shot/possession battle and she doesn't call many timeouts.  A couple of those things, DD gets heavily criticized for.  The difference this year is seen on the defensive and rebounding execution.  When the shots aren't falling, like yesterday, Kim's teams made up for it. The substitution pattern makes no sense to me...but it works and it takes some special buy-in from players.  That's obviously a big difference as well.

agree.  but the part nobody mentioned here (i might have missed it in another topic) is when 3s and mid-range shots weren't falling, what else did the players immediately do?  they took the ball inside- first, to around/or just inside the foul line to probe, then closer to the hoop.  they probed because JMU is a taller team with good inside players.  but Herd made enough shots to stay in it and win it.  this is a team that is athletic enough, can handle the ball well enough to play outside in or inside out.

i will say, and not negatively, is that Matthews is struggling to finish at the hoop after a long layoff.  she's not the only one who struggles to finish layups/short shots, not that they are easy. 

facing teams in the NCAAs will be a different beast because everybody is tall, athletic, can handle the ball and are well coached.  this team has to finish shots on offense, but most of all, continue with great, smothering, press defense.  Herd has a great opportunity and a good chance of beating anybody.

[Rockin Herd Fan]

IMO, the biggest difference is one coach is young and hungry to succeed.  The other is old and just hanging onto his dream job because he still enjoys basketball. 

[Always THE HERD]

The MBB will be better now that Curfman is graduating, just wait and see. He was not a point guard, did not do well when under pressure (attempting to shoot 3's, etc.).

[MicDrass1]

She is just a much better HC and leader than DD.  She?s proven this her entire career.  D2 or D20 - a winner is going to find a way to win. 

[Garbanjo]

The MBB will be better now that Curfman is graduating, just wait and see. He was not a point guard, did not do well when under pressure (attempting to shoot 3's, etc.).

Yes it's Curfman's fault lolol

LMAO

[MUfan08]

The MBB will be better now that Curfman is graduating, just wait and see. He was not a point guard, did not do well when under pressure (attempting to shoot 3's, etc.).

Whose fault is that, it goes back to Dan not having any true PG here and trying any and everyone that could dribble the ball. Guess what, Conner didn't and isn't going to do much better if the plan is still going to have him be pg. He is too timid, slow for that spot on both ends. Get him back to the SF/3 spot and he will get better in that natural spot.

We all knew Curfman was not that athletic and his foot speed was slow, and he was limited to being a spot shooter, but Dan the man had other plans...until it blew up in his face.

[herdloyal]

What Has been shown by our WBB team is that if you?re not able to substitute freely you most likely will lose. We have 12 to 15 players that can run defense. This team has that advantage! No quit in them no matter who is on the floor at any given time. Every 90 Seconds to 2-3mins at a time.

[chris88]

Any system can be good if you have the right players and bad when you don't. You have to have some instinct about which players will thrive in your system. Kim knows her system, knows how to teach it and improve players in the system individually and collectively, and knows the motivation side too. She will have to show she can recruit better and better players but who can doubt her at this point?

Dan?
- Doesn't recruit for the most part. He let's his assistants do most of the work, which is why those who are offered etc almost always mention Corny or Cline and not DD. He just tells them who not to recruit anymore or offer scholly to. He has never capitalized on the good years by recruiting and selling Marshall to better players.
- Doesn't really do the scheduling. Only tells his assts who not to schedule (anybody in better leagues)
- Doesn't really run practice. He lets assistants do it. When he got more involved the team got worse record wise
- They don't really scout or gameplan for the opposition according to his own words.
- Often doesn't do press conferences or shake opponent's hands when they lose
- Has a mile high excuse list, never takes responsibility for anything, and has no problem throwing his players under the bus when he has recruited guys who aren't capable of doing what he wants them to do on a consistent basis and don't fit his system.

So basically he wants to show up on gameday and coach. Lazy.

This is why he wont retire. He has the life of a HS coach without the teaching or other responsibilities, is making mid-high 6 figures, and is held to a different standard than every other HC at Marshall. The admin treats him like he is made man in the mafioso. But that's ok because we now have a women's coach and program we can get behind who will challenge for championships and postseason appearences on an annual basis.

[svherd]

The MBB will be better now that Curfman is graduating, just wait and see. He was not a point guard, did not do well when under pressure (attempting to shoot 3's, etc.).

The only true PG on the roster is Nutter and he is not a scorer. Without Kurfman and Voyles, and possibly Obinna, Martin and whoever else - this team will be much worse next year

[MUther]

We used to do that in MBB.  It's why we won a lot of 20 game seasons.  The pace we had was a blur.  If we lost a game it was in the 100s.  Dan got soft after he won in 2018.  But prior to that they hustled, even with a bench full of useless Euros.  But we were smaller and quick like our girls are.  Now we are long and lean like a pine forest, but trees don't move.

[GreenWhite]

Difference is Kim knows her players and what they can do. Dan has no idea what his players can do. Like someone has said, he tries to put square pegs in round holes.

[Garbanjo]

The only true PG on the roster is Nutter and he is not a scorer. Without Kurfman and Voyles, and possibly Obinna, Martin and whoever else - this team will be much worse next year

Nutter is a D2 player

Painfully obvious

[FilmJunky]

Nutter is a D2 player

Painfully obvious

Someone on another thread said we needed more D2 players.

[Garbanjo]

Someone on another thread said we needed more D2 players.

There's a massive difference between say Stevie Browning and Ryan Nutter

So, yes, we can land quality D2 guys to move up to our level, especially guards

[Collis P]

Someone on another thread said we needed more D2 players.

Experienced and Established  - D2  players

[MicDrass1]

Idk if Nutter would start on a good top 25 D2 team.  0 offensive game.  Connor and most of the rest might not either.  Would the Herd win the Mountain East Conf?

[parshall2marshall]

Coach Kim made it immediately clear the inmates weren't going to run the asylum. A returning starter and leading scorer - no matter. We were going to run the system and abide by whatever the sub patterns and PT that the boss decides they are going to be.

[herd1990]

I just think the approach from recruiting, to roster management, to early pre-season practices......there is just a huge difference.

Caldwell in her presser yesterday noted that during pre-season practices that her coaching mentality was: "hate me now, love me later". She has also noted during the season that her practices are harder than the games which makes the games easier. She also handled the early season adversity well in her press conferences. She never crumbled. She stood strong and was a real leader which I think rubs off on the team. She never threw Scott under the bus......handled it in-house and provided her a way out.....we still did fine. She didn't use Scott leaving as any excuse unlike Dan who used Taylor leaving forever and ever.....even though Dan had more time to find a replacement for Taylor than Caldwell had for Scott. Caldwell has the "next women up" mentality.

Dan talked of pre-season of "having fun"........"making the players feel good about themselves"........mocking coaches who use the maximum time for practice by saying he only needed an hour-and-a-half each day. His preparation approach along with poor roster management caused the team to lose 8 games out the final 9. We had plenty of excuses along the way: Taylor left too late, the OOC was too tough (even though the women were on the road in non-conference more than the men), fans were a problem, social media is a problem, not enough energy from the bench, assistants weren't game planning properly. It was excuse after excuse after excuse. I never saw a sense of urgency either up until the next-to-last game. Just easy money mentality. Dan is also out of touch. He talks of running a program like that of the late '60s. It is the most absurd notion I have ever heard and it is killing our men's program. His practice groupies buy into it tooth-and-nail. But two more years of this and this program will be as low as a D1 program can get. I have never seen any thing like how he manages players and a roster.

Don't give me that it is any harder to win a men's championship than a women's championship crap. Those women won yesterday on mental toughness and a determination not to lose, even when they couldn't make shots. That rubbed off from the coach. She is the definition of a real leader. She had adversity this season.....just as much as the men's team. She just got after day after day after day and never wavered on her system. I just don't think our fanbase could have asked any more out of a coach than what Kim Caldwell brought us.

Maybe the best summation of what's good about Kim and bad about Dan.  Spot on and 💯 accurate !