Topic: 'Just win': Holliday not worried about style points

[biggreenarms]

For Holliday, there is only one thing that matters.

"Just win," Holliday said. "Winning is hard. My goodness, it's so hard. You look around the country right now and I bet Nebraska would like to have a one-point win right now (following Northern Illinois loss), I promise you that."

Following Saturday's 21-0 win over Kent State, Herd fans expressed discontent about the offense's inability to score points with the game sitting scoreless for much of the first half and only a 7-0 contest through three quarters.

Given Marshall's history as a high-scoring team, perhaps it is natural for fans to expect games in which the Herd scores 30 to 40 points per contest.

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/sports/marshall_sports/just-win-holliday-not-worried-about-style-points/article_31f64dfe-6854-5aa5-985b-85393f3d7d87.html

[Big City]

Following Saturday's 21-0 win over Kent State, Herd fans expressed discontent about the offense's inability to score points with the game sitting scoreless for much of the first half and only a 7-0 contest through three quarters.

Given Marshall's history as a high-scoring team, perhaps it is natural for fans to expect games in which the Herd scores 30 to 40 points per contest.

As long as Marshall finds a way to win I'm thrilled. It's a team game. Defense really contributed and kept Kent off the board. I think scoring in the mid-upper 20's is the ceiling for the offense in the early season. I do think they will grow and get better as a unit as they move in to conference play. While a road win vs UC isn't critical in the conference race I think it would be a huge shot of adrenaline for the team as they face some tougher conference opponents on the road.

UC is a big game for Marshall

[chris88]

Coaches rightfully focus on a season one game at a time and then deal with what the end of the season brings as it comes about.

Fans, on the other hand, are largely looking at the bigger picture of the season all along the way.  Fans can be happy that we beat Kent, but are also looking at whether this is a team that can overachieve and have a "special" season.  Special for most being defined as playing for a conf championship, being in contention for the access slot, finishing in top 25 etc.  Face it, if you are used to a certain level of success, your program and supporters have higher expectations.  When you go into a season where many are looking at 6-6 or 7-5 as a success than you aren't going to generate much buzz.  People aren't stupid.  They know how good the competition is and they can see flaws that would likely prevent a team from overachieving or having a special season.  Coaches can complain, but it is the lure of national relevance etc that makes fans/supporters ok with paying a CUSA coach 700k or an OC over 200k but that also comes with a level of expectation about what the program should achieve. When your offense is ranked in the bottom 25% or so in most statistical categories, most fans are going to see that as a problem.

If you just want people to go to the games and cheer for their team, tailgate with friends and not care too much about the products value...than charge $15 a game, pay coaches much less, and don't consistently ask for donations.  I won't be going to Cincy game because I find our offense to be, most of the time, unwatchable and the aggravation isn't worth the money/time to me. Does that make me a bad fan?? Probably to some, but I stopped going to BB games when White, Jirsa, and eventually TH were coach for the same reasons.  I'm generally excited to go see BB games now because its fun and I feel like the DD is getting the most of his talent. Winning 9 games in a crappy FB conference doesn't do for me when the quality of the play is still subpar....especially on offensive side.

[MUonium]

As long as Marshall finds a way to win I'm thrilled. It's a team game. Defense really contributed and kept Kent off the board. I think scoring in the mid-upper 20's is the ceiling for the offense in the early season. I do think they will grow and get better as a unit as they move in to conference play. While a road win vs UC isn't critical in the conference race I think it would be a huge shot of adrenaline for the team as they face some tougher conference opponents on the road.

UC is a big game for Marshall

yes.  and to be fair i think time will tell that the secondaries of all three opponents were not bad defenders and our receivers (as a whole unit) are seen as average in the broad sense, with potential to be somewhere above average.   maybe Herd can put all three phases together and get on the map of underdog/G5 news.  right now, it appears both Cincy and Herd are seen as middle of the road in respective conferences

[svherd]

"Winning is everything, and nothing else matters."

[herd2win]

Not accepting that Doc is a conservative coach after all these years is just insanity...I will take any win because I know the difference between the Snyder years, last year and what it feels like to win.

I will take winning by 1 point every time.

[BHFIOHIO]

and at the same time theres nothing wrong with fans being concerned with our O as long as they don't drive it in the ground

[Buffalo Bop]

"Winning is everything, and nothing else matters."

[herdfifteen]

Chris 88, A couple observations, you will find almost no one on this board disagreeing about Legg.I find you one of our more knowledgeable posters, I also find it interesting you seem to have little interest in football at this point but find bball exciting under DD. College sports has the pre season top 144 bball  programs in the nation listed and Marshall is not among them, should we not have the same expectations for bball as football?

[BHFIOHIO]

Spent a while looking at the HD game day roster and anyone should be able to see that we are building serious depth along with 3 game starters. Five really large WO OL for example to supplement 4 returning starters, Locklear and 4 RS Fr some who played vs Kent. Also 4 equally large OL commitments all from the Bluegrass state. Two srs out of 15 listed DL. I still think Chase will do well and by next yr IG will be ready if needed.

BB also should really be strong next yr barring injuries, any more academic attrition or Elmore declaring for the NBA.

I live for both sports. BB since the fifties and FB since Sonny Randle.

Things are looking good.

[chris88]

Chris 88, A couple observations, you will find almost no one on this board disagreeing about Legg.I find you one of our more knowledgeable posters, I also find it interesting you seem to have little interest in football at this point but find bball exciting under DD. College sports has the pre season top 144 bball  programs in the nation listed and Marshall is not among them, should we not have the same expectations for bball as football?

Excellent question.  I can only tell you how I feel.  For BB, I don't care about the ranking at this point,,,,although there are over 300 D1 BB programs and you could be an above average team and not on that list.  In all sports I care about fundamentals, strategy, and getting the most of your talent.  I enjoyed watching my daughter play soccer her last 2 years although they only won 1 game and tied a couple of others.  Why?  They played hard and up to potential, they didn't point fingers at each other and they got better.  They were void of talent but how hard they played you couldn't tell if they were 0-20 or 20-0 from that aspect. 

The basketball teams under DD have not had tremendous talent, but the players play as a team, play hard, and have gotten better throughout season.  Even if things don't always work, I can see the strategy being employed. They are fun to watch.  In a season, you are going to have some clunker games...but more often than not, win or lose, I feel we are getting most out of talent most of the time. And recruiting seems to be getting better.

In FB, I really watch strategy very closely.  I know enough about what is going on to dissect that strategy and can tell good strategy from bad.  It pains me to see the defense/ST coming on strong after a bad season but an offense that looks not much different.  I understand  a few changes would do wonders for the offense and it aggravates me to no end that guys making that much money can't figure it out.  I can't help but get aggravated thinking about what an offense even close to Jeff Brohm system would do with the same personnel and how we should be talking about an undefeated or championship season vs hopefully winning 8 games vs mostly crappy teams.  Litton is plenty good enough to run Brohms system IMO. MU fans and Hton deserve better IMO.  In a way I wish I could just watch, cheer, and hope we win.  But I'm just not built that way.  I see the potential and can't stand how underperforming we continue to be with an archaic, unimaginative, and inflexible system that has nothing on many HS programs. Yes 2014 was awesome but much of the offensive success was having a phenomenal QB in Cato.  How often do you think a guy like him, Leftwich or Penny come along? To be honest, Kueck, McHale, and whoever the OC was under Snyder were not much better.  There are lots of guys out there in HS and across the college spectrum that could put in a system head and shoulders above what MU has had in last 13 or so years. Until that happens or I am shown it's getting better, I will mostly engage via TV/radio where I can turn it off when I get miffed and find something more productive/enjoyable to do while I check back in from time to time vs planning my entire day around going and/or watching.

[Apollo]

Spent a while looking at the HD game day roster and anyone should be able to see that we are building serious depth along with 3 game starters. Five really large WO OL for example to supplement 4 returning starters, Locklear and 4 RS Fr some who played vs Kent. Also 4 equally large OL commitments all from the Bluegrass state. Two srs out of 15 listed DL. I still think Chase will do well and by next yr IG will be ready if needed.

BB also should really be strong next yr barring injuries, any more academic attrition or Elmore declaring for the NBA.

I live for both sports. BB since the fifties and FB since Sonny Randle.

Things are looking good.

Good points, but I think the history of attrition in both sports is why I'd be skeptical about the "next year" argument. If not then yes both should be loaded for good years next year. I think bball's biggest concern is keeping Jon for his final year. If he stays and Iran lives up to the hype during game time (he lives up to it in practice from the ones I've watched), bball will be a lot of fun to watch. Its just a shame that football is perennially young and DD seems to still be finding his way in recruiting the right players at the right spots and keeping them instead of gambles that don't work out and having to scramble to fill holes for the next year. But definitely looks promising. If only our football offense would adapt to the skill sets we have instead of the other way around and that's all I'll say I promise.

[Garbanjo]

Excellent question.  I can only tell you how I feel.  For BB, I don't care about the ranking at this point,,,,although there are over 300 D1 BB programs and you could be an above average team and not on that list.  In all sports I care about fundamentals, strategy, and getting the most of your talent.  I enjoyed watching my daughter play soccer her last 2 years although they only won 1 game and tied a couple of others.  Why?  They played hard and up to potential, they didn't point fingers at each other and they got better.  They were void of talent but how hard they played you couldn't tell if they were 0-20 or 20-0 from that aspect. 

The basketball teams under DD have not had tremendous talent, but the players play as a team, play hard, and have gotten better throughout season.  Even if things don't always work, I can see the strategy being employed. They are fun to watch.  In a season, you are going to have some clunker games...but more often than not, win or lose, I feel we are getting most out of talent most of the time. And recruiting seems to be getting better.

In FB, I really watch strategy very closely.  I know enough about what is going on to dissect that strategy and can tell good strategy from bad.  It pains me to see the defense/ST coming on strong after a bad season but an offense that looks not much different.  I understand  a few changes would do wonders for the offense and it aggravates me to no end that guys making that much money can't figure it out.  I can't help but get aggravated thinking about what an offense even close to Jeff Brohm system would do with the same personnel and how we should be talking about an undefeated or championship season vs hopefully winning 8 games vs mostly crappy teams.  Litton is plenty good enough to run Brohms system IMO. MU fans and Hton deserve better IMO.  In a way I wish I could just watch, cheer, and hope we win.  But I'm just not built that way.  I see the potential and can't stand how underperforming we continue to be with an archaic, unimaginative, and inflexible system that has nothing on many HS programs. Yes 2014 was awesome but much of the offensive success was having a phenomenal QB in Cato.  How often do you think a guy like him, Leftwich or Penny come along? To be honest, Kueck, McHale, and whoever the OC was under Snyder were not much better.  There are lots of guys out there in HS and across the college spectrum that could put in a system head and shoulders above what MU has had in last 13 or so years. Until that happens or I am shown it's getting better, I will mostly engage via TV/radio where I can turn it off when I get miffed and find something more productive/enjoyable to do while I check back in from time to time vs planning my entire day around going and/or watching.

Terrific post Chris! I agree wholeheartedly, as watching our O is just torture. We have the talent on O to be very good, but Legg refuses to adapt to the strengths of his personnel.

 

[svherd]

I've always heard it said that good coaches adapt to the personnel and strengths they have.

[whf]

Circumstances are important.  Strategy is most effective when adapted to fit the circumstances.  Forcing one's strategy into circumstances is the kind of effort that gets you 3 & 9.  So far I like this year's better, which I feel is to take advantage of the conditions in each game and get a W.  The fan base was horrified by 3 & 9; now we stand at 2 & 1 and many are now horrified by how we got there.  I just don't get it.  If you watched that game Saturday and weren't excited about the defense and hopeful for every time we had a special teams opportunity I don't know how you weren't.  If you couldnt see the offense playing newcomers on the oline, and finally figuring out how to get the job done, I don't know how you didn't see it. 

The strategy, the most important one IMHO, is to win ever time out.  Whatever it takes.  Did anyone ever think that maybe our offensive strategy last week in the last half was to just wear them down and win?

[Apollo]

Circumstances are important.  Strategy is most effective when adapted to fit the circumstances.  Forcing one's strategy into circumstances is the kind of effort that gets you 3 & 9.  So far I like this year's better, which I feel is to take advantage of the conditions in each game and get a W.  The fan base was horrified by 3 & 9; now we stand at 2 & 1 and many are now horrified by how we got there.  I just don't get it.  If you watched that game Saturday and weren't excited about the defense and hopeful for every time we had a special teams opportunity I don't know how you weren't.  If you couldnt see the offense playing newcomers on the oline, and finally figuring out how to get the job done, I don't know how you didn't see it. 

The strategy, the most important one IMHO, is to win ever time out.  Whatever it takes.  Did anyone ever think that maybe our offensive strategy last week in the last half was to just wear them down and win?

I think everyone is satisfied with how the D and ST have performed. The offense is the same offense, a few different cast members. I don't know how you don't see that. Very little change and what has has no real effect on the outcome. You talk about circumstance but ignore the circumstance that has a pro-style QB running a read option offense and not getting results. Wear them down and win? You really think that was the strategy???

[MUonium]

i wouldn't want a continual revolving door of head coaches in any sport but i think choices of assistant coaches are extremely important and reflect on a head coach.  in FB and Men's BB i think some hire mistakes were made that could have been a factor in the pace of program development or why they stumbled.  recruiting might be seen as one example.

[Garbanjo]

Circumstances are important.  Strategy is most effective when adapted to fit the circumstances.  Forcing one's strategy into circumstances is the kind of effort that gets you 3 & 9.  So far I like this year's better, which I feel is to take advantage of the conditions in each game and get a W.  The fan base was horrified by 3 & 9; now we stand at 2 & 1 and many are now horrified by how we got there.  I just don't get it.  If you watched that game Saturday and weren't excited about the defense and hopeful for every time we had a special teams opportunity I don't know how you weren't.  If you couldnt see the offense playing newcomers on the oline, and finally figuring out how to get the job done, I don't know how you didn't see it. 

The strategy, the most important one IMHO, is to win ever time out.  Whatever it takes.  Did anyone ever think that maybe our offensive strategy last week in the last half was to just wear them down and win?

Very good on D and special teams.............horrible, atrocious and down right unwatchable on O

[Garbanjo]

I think everyone is satisfied with how the D and ST have performed. The offense is the same offense, a few different cast members. I don't know how you don't see that. Very little change and what has has no real effect on the outcome. You talk about circumstance but ignore the circumstance that has a pro-style QB running a read option offense and not getting results. Wear them down and win? You really think that was the strategy???

+1

[The E-Man]

Fans, on the other hand, are largely looking at the bigger picture of the season all along the way.  Fans can be happy that we beat Kent, but are also looking at whether this is a team that can overachieve and have a "special" season.  Special for most being defined as playing for a conf championship, being in contention for the access slot, finishing in top 25 etc.  Face it, if you are used to a certain level of success, your program and supporters have higher expectations.  When you go into a season where many are looking at 6-6 or 7-5 as a success than you aren't going to generate much buzz. People aren't stupid.  They know how good the competition is and they can see flaws that would likely prevent a team from overachieving or having a special season.  Coaches can complain, but it is the lure of national relevance etc that makes fans/supporters ok with paying a CUSA coach 700k or an OC over 200k but that also comes with a level of expectation about what the program should achieve. When your offense is ranked in the bottom 25% or so in most statistical categories, most fans are going to see that as a problem.

If you just want people to go to the games and cheer for their team, tailgate with friends and not care too much about the products value...than charge $15 a game, pay coaches much less, and don't consistently ask for donations.  I won't be going to Cincy game because I find our offense to be, most of the time, unwatchable and the aggravation isn't worth the money/time to me. Does that make me a bad fan?? Probably to some, but I stopped going to BB games when White, Jirsa, and eventually TH were coach for the same reasons.  I'm generally excited to go see BB games now because its fun and I feel like the DD is getting the most of his talent. Winning 9 games in a crappy FB conference doesn't do for me when the quality of the play is still subpar....especially on offensive side.

Another great post from a Herd fan. Chris you're keeping it as real as it gets! Some fans will take your post as complaining and bitching, when in reality you're speaking the truth.

[CoachMaclid]

Time to go all "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" here...

I will argue that style points are definitely important, and I think this statement highlights why Doc has always had a cap on his performance at Marshall.  In fact, a 10-3 Boise team got the New Year Six bowl autobid over a 12-1 Marshall in 2014 (and would have still gotten it over a 13-0 Marshall) because of "style points" of the programs.  Marshall has nationally lost its reputation as being amoung the elite of the G5 even though we're the only one recently to have have "3 consecutive 10 win seasons" because we have no style points.

If you were to build an inverted college football hierarchy of needs...

1.) The program has to have resources and support to survive
2.) The program has to win
3.) The program has to have a championship mentality and performance
4.) The program has to develop a nationally solid and respectable reputation (style points)
5.) National elite status

You can't get to 3 or 4 without style points.  You can win all you want, but if no one takes notice or is not impressed, then the program's progress and future is ultimately capped.

[The E-Man]

I can't help but get aggravated thinking about what an offense even close to Jeff Brohm system would do with the same personnel and how we should be talking about an undefeated or championship season vs hopefully winning 8 games vs mostly crappy teams.  Litton is plenty good enough to run Brohms system IMO. MU fans and Hton deserve better IMO.   I see the potential and can't stand how under performing we continue to be with an archaic, unimaginative, and inflexible system that has nothing on many HS programs.  There are lots of guys out there in HS and across the college spectrum that could put in a system head and shoulders above what MU has had in last 13 or so years.

I agree! It's frustrating to me as well to see the potential for (a very lethal offense), as opposed to an offense that continues to struggle and under performs. If only we had an innovative coordinator this all falls back on Doc, he's the head coach.

[jstherd]

You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results?  Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

[Apollo]

You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results?  Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

I think DD has gotten a pass to this point because he hasn't been in the college game and a "master" recruiter for 30 years. So it's been a bit trial and error for him to learn the ropes as they say. That said, bball is easier to turn around than FB and his pass is evaporating. He's set up to have a monster year next if Jon is back with Iran so if he can't do it there, then the pass is definitely gone.

[herdorbust]

We should be killing these teams like kent st, charlotte fiu fau uab etc....if we were half the team we were in the mid to late 90' and early 2000's. Im not happy about just winning when we are struggling against a horrible kent st team at home that has only won 13 games in FIVE years. We would have scored 21bpoints againt that team in the 1st quarter back then. Doc and legg will never learn. And making excuses about how hard it is to win against the bottom of the mac and cusa is really depressing.