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The Green and White Sector
The place to talk Marshall University sports! => HerdFans => Topic started by: biggreenarms on September 21, 2017, 04:16:44 AM
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For Holliday, there is only one thing that matters.
"Just win," Holliday said. "Winning is hard. My goodness, it's so hard. You look around the country right now and I bet Nebraska would like to have a one-point win right now (following Northern Illinois loss), I promise you that."
Following Saturday's 21-0 win over Kent State, Herd fans expressed discontent about the offense's inability to score points with the game sitting scoreless for much of the first half and only a 7-0 contest through three quarters.
Given Marshall's history as a high-scoring team, perhaps it is natural for fans to expect games in which the Herd scores 30 to 40 points per contest.
http://www.herald-dispatch.com/sports/marshall_sports/just-win-holliday-not-worried-about-style-points/article_31f64dfe-6854-5aa5-985b-85393f3d7d87.html
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Following Saturday's 21-0 win over Kent State, Herd fans expressed discontent about the offense's inability to score points with the game sitting scoreless for much of the first half and only a 7-0 contest through three quarters.
Given Marshall's history as a high-scoring team, perhaps it is natural for fans to expect games in which the Herd scores 30 to 40 points per contest.
As long as Marshall finds a way to win I'm thrilled. It's a team game. Defense really contributed and kept Kent off the board. I think scoring in the mid-upper 20's is the ceiling for the offense in the early season. I do think they will grow and get better as a unit as they move in to conference play. While a road win vs UC isn't critical in the conference race I think it would be a huge shot of adrenaline for the team as they face some tougher conference opponents on the road.
UC is a big game for Marshall
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Coaches rightfully focus on a season one game at a time and then deal with what the end of the season brings as it comes about.
Fans, on the other hand, are largely looking at the bigger picture of the season all along the way. Fans can be happy that we beat Kent, but are also looking at whether this is a team that can overachieve and have a "special" season. Special for most being defined as playing for a conf championship, being in contention for the access slot, finishing in top 25 etc. Face it, if you are used to a certain level of success, your program and supporters have higher expectations. When you go into a season where many are looking at 6-6 or 7-5 as a success than you aren't going to generate much buzz. People aren't stupid. They know how good the competition is and they can see flaws that would likely prevent a team from overachieving or having a special season. Coaches can complain, but it is the lure of national relevance etc that makes fans/supporters ok with paying a CUSA coach 700k or an OC over 200k but that also comes with a level of expectation about what the program should achieve. When your offense is ranked in the bottom 25% or so in most statistical categories, most fans are going to see that as a problem.
If you just want people to go to the games and cheer for their team, tailgate with friends and not care too much about the products value...than charge $15 a game, pay coaches much less, and don't consistently ask for donations. I won't be going to Cincy game because I find our offense to be, most of the time, unwatchable and the aggravation isn't worth the money/time to me. Does that make me a bad fan?? Probably to some, but I stopped going to BB games when White, Jirsa, and eventually TH were coach for the same reasons. I'm generally excited to go see BB games now because its fun and I feel like the DD is getting the most of his talent. Winning 9 games in a crappy FB conference doesn't do for me when the quality of the play is still subpar....especially on offensive side.
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As long as Marshall finds a way to win I'm thrilled. It's a team game. Defense really contributed and kept Kent off the board. I think scoring in the mid-upper 20's is the ceiling for the offense in the early season. I do think they will grow and get better as a unit as they move in to conference play. While a road win vs UC isn't critical in the conference race I think it would be a huge shot of adrenaline for the team as they face some tougher conference opponents on the road.
UC is a big game for Marshall
yes. and to be fair i think time will tell that the secondaries of all three opponents were not bad defenders and our receivers (as a whole unit) are seen as average in the broad sense, with potential to be somewhere above average. maybe Herd can put all three phases together and get on the map of underdog/G5 news. right now, it appears both Cincy and Herd are seen as middle of the road in respective conferences
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"Winning is everything, and nothing else matters."
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Not accepting that Doc is a conservative coach after all these years is just insanity...I will take any win because I know the difference between the Snyder years, last year and what it feels like to win.
I will take winning by 1 point every time.
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and at the same time theres nothing wrong with fans being concerned with our O as long as they don't drive it in the ground
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"Winning is everything, and nothing else matters."
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Chris 88, A couple observations, you will find almost no one on this board disagreeing about Legg.I find you one of our more knowledgeable posters, I also find it interesting you seem to have little interest in football at this point but find bball exciting under DD. College sports has the pre season top 144 bball programs in the nation listed and Marshall is not among them, should we not have the same expectations for bball as football?
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Spent a while looking at the HD game day roster and anyone should be able to see that we are building serious depth along with 3 game starters. Five really large WO OL for example to supplement 4 returning starters, Locklear and 4 RS Fr some who played vs Kent. Also 4 equally large OL commitments all from the Bluegrass state. Two srs out of 15 listed DL. I still think Chase will do well and by next yr IG will be ready if needed.
BB also should really be strong next yr barring injuries, any more academic attrition or Elmore declaring for the NBA.
I live for both sports. BB since the fifties and FB since Sonny Randle.
Things are looking good.
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Chris 88, A couple observations, you will find almost no one on this board disagreeing about Legg.I find you one of our more knowledgeable posters, I also find it interesting you seem to have little interest in football at this point but find bball exciting under DD. College sports has the pre season top 144 bball programs in the nation listed and Marshall is not among them, should we not have the same expectations for bball as football?
Excellent question. I can only tell you how I feel. For BB, I don't care about the ranking at this point,,,,although there are over 300 D1 BB programs and you could be an above average team and not on that list. In all sports I care about fundamentals, strategy, and getting the most of your talent. I enjoyed watching my daughter play soccer her last 2 years although they only won 1 game and tied a couple of others. Why? They played hard and up to potential, they didn't point fingers at each other and they got better. They were void of talent but how hard they played you couldn't tell if they were 0-20 or 20-0 from that aspect.
The basketball teams under DD have not had tremendous talent, but the players play as a team, play hard, and have gotten better throughout season. Even if things don't always work, I can see the strategy being employed. They are fun to watch. In a season, you are going to have some clunker games...but more often than not, win or lose, I feel we are getting most out of talent most of the time. And recruiting seems to be getting better.
In FB, I really watch strategy very closely. I know enough about what is going on to dissect that strategy and can tell good strategy from bad. It pains me to see the defense/ST coming on strong after a bad season but an offense that looks not much different. I understand a few changes would do wonders for the offense and it aggravates me to no end that guys making that much money can't figure it out. I can't help but get aggravated thinking about what an offense even close to Jeff Brohm system would do with the same personnel and how we should be talking about an undefeated or championship season vs hopefully winning 8 games vs mostly crappy teams. Litton is plenty good enough to run Brohms system IMO. MU fans and Hton deserve better IMO. In a way I wish I could just watch, cheer, and hope we win. But I'm just not built that way. I see the potential and can't stand how underperforming we continue to be with an archaic, unimaginative, and inflexible system that has nothing on many HS programs. Yes 2014 was awesome but much of the offensive success was having a phenomenal QB in Cato. How often do you think a guy like him, Leftwich or Penny come along? To be honest, Kueck, McHale, and whoever the OC was under Snyder were not much better. There are lots of guys out there in HS and across the college spectrum that could put in a system head and shoulders above what MU has had in last 13 or so years. Until that happens or I am shown it's getting better, I will mostly engage via TV/radio where I can turn it off when I get miffed and find something more productive/enjoyable to do while I check back in from time to time vs planning my entire day around going and/or watching.
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Spent a while looking at the HD game day roster and anyone should be able to see that we are building serious depth along with 3 game starters. Five really large WO OL for example to supplement 4 returning starters, Locklear and 4 RS Fr some who played vs Kent. Also 4 equally large OL commitments all from the Bluegrass state. Two srs out of 15 listed DL. I still think Chase will do well and by next yr IG will be ready if needed.
BB also should really be strong next yr barring injuries, any more academic attrition or Elmore declaring for the NBA.
I live for both sports. BB since the fifties and FB since Sonny Randle.
Things are looking good.
Good points, but I think the history of attrition in both sports is why I'd be skeptical about the "next year" argument. If not then yes both should be loaded for good years next year. I think bball's biggest concern is keeping Jon for his final year. If he stays and Iran lives up to the hype during game time (he lives up to it in practice from the ones I've watched), bball will be a lot of fun to watch. Its just a shame that football is perennially young and DD seems to still be finding his way in recruiting the right players at the right spots and keeping them instead of gambles that don't work out and having to scramble to fill holes for the next year. But definitely looks promising. If only our football offense would adapt to the skill sets we have instead of the other way around and that's all I'll say I promise.
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Excellent question. I can only tell you how I feel. For BB, I don't care about the ranking at this point,,,,although there are over 300 D1 BB programs and you could be an above average team and not on that list. In all sports I care about fundamentals, strategy, and getting the most of your talent. I enjoyed watching my daughter play soccer her last 2 years although they only won 1 game and tied a couple of others. Why? They played hard and up to potential, they didn't point fingers at each other and they got better. They were void of talent but how hard they played you couldn't tell if they were 0-20 or 20-0 from that aspect.
The basketball teams under DD have not had tremendous talent, but the players play as a team, play hard, and have gotten better throughout season. Even if things don't always work, I can see the strategy being employed. They are fun to watch. In a season, you are going to have some clunker games...but more often than not, win or lose, I feel we are getting most out of talent most of the time. And recruiting seems to be getting better.
In FB, I really watch strategy very closely. I know enough about what is going on to dissect that strategy and can tell good strategy from bad. It pains me to see the defense/ST coming on strong after a bad season but an offense that looks not much different. I understand a few changes would do wonders for the offense and it aggravates me to no end that guys making that much money can't figure it out. I can't help but get aggravated thinking about what an offense even close to Jeff Brohm system would do with the same personnel and how we should be talking about an undefeated or championship season vs hopefully winning 8 games vs mostly crappy teams. Litton is plenty good enough to run Brohms system IMO. MU fans and Hton deserve better IMO. In a way I wish I could just watch, cheer, and hope we win. But I'm just not built that way. I see the potential and can't stand how underperforming we continue to be with an archaic, unimaginative, and inflexible system that has nothing on many HS programs. Yes 2014 was awesome but much of the offensive success was having a phenomenal QB in Cato. How often do you think a guy like him, Leftwich or Penny come along? To be honest, Kueck, McHale, and whoever the OC was under Snyder were not much better. There are lots of guys out there in HS and across the college spectrum that could put in a system head and shoulders above what MU has had in last 13 or so years. Until that happens or I am shown it's getting better, I will mostly engage via TV/radio where I can turn it off when I get miffed and find something more productive/enjoyable to do while I check back in from time to time vs planning my entire day around going and/or watching.
Terrific post Chris! I agree wholeheartedly, as watching our O is just torture. We have the talent on O to be very good, but Legg refuses to adapt to the strengths of his personnel.
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I've always heard it said that good coaches adapt to the personnel and strengths they have.
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Circumstances are important. Strategy is most effective when adapted to fit the circumstances. Forcing one's strategy into circumstances is the kind of effort that gets you 3 & 9. So far I like this year's better, which I feel is to take advantage of the conditions in each game and get a W. The fan base was horrified by 3 & 9; now we stand at 2 & 1 and many are now horrified by how we got there. I just don't get it. If you watched that game Saturday and weren't excited about the defense and hopeful for every time we had a special teams opportunity I don't know how you weren't. If you couldnt see the offense playing newcomers on the oline, and finally figuring out how to get the job done, I don't know how you didn't see it.
The strategy, the most important one IMHO, is to win ever time out. Whatever it takes. Did anyone ever think that maybe our offensive strategy last week in the last half was to just wear them down and win?
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Circumstances are important. Strategy is most effective when adapted to fit the circumstances. Forcing one's strategy into circumstances is the kind of effort that gets you 3 & 9. So far I like this year's better, which I feel is to take advantage of the conditions in each game and get a W. The fan base was horrified by 3 & 9; now we stand at 2 & 1 and many are now horrified by how we got there. I just don't get it. If you watched that game Saturday and weren't excited about the defense and hopeful for every time we had a special teams opportunity I don't know how you weren't. If you couldnt see the offense playing newcomers on the oline, and finally figuring out how to get the job done, I don't know how you didn't see it.
The strategy, the most important one IMHO, is to win ever time out. Whatever it takes. Did anyone ever think that maybe our offensive strategy last week in the last half was to just wear them down and win?
I think everyone is satisfied with how the D and ST have performed. The offense is the same offense, a few different cast members. I don't know how you don't see that. Very little change and what has has no real effect on the outcome. You talk about circumstance but ignore the circumstance that has a pro-style QB running a read option offense and not getting results. Wear them down and win? You really think that was the strategy???
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i wouldn't want a continual revolving door of head coaches in any sport but i think choices of assistant coaches are extremely important and reflect on a head coach. in FB and Men's BB i think some hire mistakes were made that could have been a factor in the pace of program development or why they stumbled. recruiting might be seen as one example.
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Circumstances are important. Strategy is most effective when adapted to fit the circumstances. Forcing one's strategy into circumstances is the kind of effort that gets you 3 & 9. So far I like this year's better, which I feel is to take advantage of the conditions in each game and get a W. The fan base was horrified by 3 & 9; now we stand at 2 & 1 and many are now horrified by how we got there. I just don't get it. If you watched that game Saturday and weren't excited about the defense and hopeful for every time we had a special teams opportunity I don't know how you weren't. If you couldnt see the offense playing newcomers on the oline, and finally figuring out how to get the job done, I don't know how you didn't see it.
The strategy, the most important one IMHO, is to win ever time out. Whatever it takes. Did anyone ever think that maybe our offensive strategy last week in the last half was to just wear them down and win?
Very good on D and special teams.............horrible, atrocious and down right unwatchable on O
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I think everyone is satisfied with how the D and ST have performed. The offense is the same offense, a few different cast members. I don't know how you don't see that. Very little change and what has has no real effect on the outcome. You talk about circumstance but ignore the circumstance that has a pro-style QB running a read option offense and not getting results. Wear them down and win? You really think that was the strategy???
+1
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Fans, on the other hand, are largely looking at the bigger picture of the season all along the way. Fans can be happy that we beat Kent, but are also looking at whether this is a team that can overachieve and have a "special" season. Special for most being defined as playing for a conf championship, being in contention for the access slot, finishing in top 25 etc. Face it, if you are used to a certain level of success, your program and supporters have higher expectations. When you go into a season where many are looking at 6-6 or 7-5 as a success than you aren't going to generate much buzz. People aren't stupid. They know how good the competition is and they can see flaws that would likely prevent a team from overachieving or having a special season. Coaches can complain, but it is the lure of national relevance etc that makes fans/supporters ok with paying a CUSA coach 700k or an OC over 200k but that also comes with a level of expectation about what the program should achieve. When your offense is ranked in the bottom 25% or so in most statistical categories, most fans are going to see that as a problem.
If you just want people to go to the games and cheer for their team, tailgate with friends and not care too much about the products value...than charge $15 a game, pay coaches much less, and don't consistently ask for donations. I won't be going to Cincy game because I find our offense to be, most of the time, unwatchable and the aggravation isn't worth the money/time to me. Does that make me a bad fan?? Probably to some, but I stopped going to BB games when White, Jirsa, and eventually TH were coach for the same reasons. I'm generally excited to go see BB games now because its fun and I feel like the DD is getting the most of his talent. Winning 9 games in a crappy FB conference doesn't do for me when the quality of the play is still subpar....especially on offensive side.
Another great post from a Herd fan. Chris you're keeping it as real as it gets! Some fans will take your post as complaining and bitching, when in reality you're speaking the truth.
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Time to go all "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" here...
I will argue that style points are definitely important, and I think this statement highlights why Doc has always had a cap on his performance at Marshall. In fact, a 10-3 Boise team got the New Year Six bowl autobid over a 12-1 Marshall in 2014 (and would have still gotten it over a 13-0 Marshall) because of "style points" of the programs. Marshall has nationally lost its reputation as being amoung the elite of the G5 even though we're the only one recently to have have "3 consecutive 10 win seasons" because we have no style points.
If you were to build an inverted college football hierarchy of needs...
1.) The program has to have resources and support to survive
2.) The program has to win
3.) The program has to have a championship mentality and performance
4.) The program has to develop a nationally solid and respectable reputation (style points)
5.) National elite status
You can't get to 3 or 4 without style points. You can win all you want, but if no one takes notice or is not impressed, then the program's progress and future is ultimately capped.
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I can't help but get aggravated thinking about what an offense even close to Jeff Brohm system would do with the same personnel and how we should be talking about an undefeated or championship season vs hopefully winning 8 games vs mostly crappy teams. Litton is plenty good enough to run Brohms system IMO. MU fans and Hton deserve better IMO. I see the potential and can't stand how under performing we continue to be with an archaic, unimaginative, and inflexible system that has nothing on many HS programs. There are lots of guys out there in HS and across the college spectrum that could put in a system head and shoulders above what MU has had in last 13 or so years.
I agree! It's frustrating to me as well to see the potential for (a very lethal offense), as opposed to an offense that continues to struggle and under performs. If only we had an innovative coordinator this all falls back on Doc, he's the head coach.
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You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results? Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.
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You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results? Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.
I think DD has gotten a pass to this point because he hasn't been in the college game and a "master" recruiter for 30 years. So it's been a bit trial and error for him to learn the ropes as they say. That said, bball is easier to turn around than FB and his pass is evaporating. He's set up to have a monster year next if Jon is back with Iran so if he can't do it there, then the pass is definitely gone.
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We should be killing these teams like kent st, charlotte fiu fau uab etc....if we were half the team we were in the mid to late 90' and early 2000's. Im not happy about just winning when we are struggling against a horrible kent st team at home that has only won 13 games in FIVE years. We would have scored 21bpoints againt that team in the 1st quarter back then. Doc and legg will never learn. And making excuses about how hard it is to win against the bottom of the mac and cusa is really depressing.
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Time to go all "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" here...
I will argue that style points are definitely important, and I think this statement highlights why Doc has always had a cap on his performance at Marshall. In fact, a 10-3 Boise team got the New Year Six bowl autobid over a 12-1 Marshall in 2014 (and would have still gotten it over a 13-0 Marshall) because of "style points" of the programs. Marshall has nationally lost its reputation as being amoung the elite of the G5 even though we're the only one recently to have have "3 consecutive 10 win seasons" because we have no style points.
If you were to build an inverted college football hierarchy of needs...
1.) The program has to have resources and support to survive
2.) The program has to win
3.) The program has to have a championship mentality and performance
4.) The program has to develop a nationally solid and respectable reputation (style points)
5.) National elite status
You can't get to 3 or 4 without style points. You can win all you want, but if no one takes notice or is not impressed, then the program's progress and future is ultimately capped.
And Boise once used US as a model. They currently have 21 players in the NFL. The caveat is Chris Peterson is a once in a generation type coach but before and after him they have been among the best G5 schools almost every year.
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Maclid is correct. In fact 'style points' are important for the P5 teams also. Since there is not truly a FBS national tournament, the 3rd and/or 4th team in gets there in a very subjective manner. And that has gotten even more subjective with the emphasis on the so-called 'eye-test' vs the more objective computer modeling.
'Style points' are even more important for mid-majors in crappy conferences...how else is a program going to attract attention from far-flung casual fans? Or keep many of us faithful interested?
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So as I see and read these various posts, it appears the biggest lament is that our football team's lack of exciting, productive and innovative offense. Same qualities that are greatly admired and cheered by some posters when they are exhibited by the Herd's basketball team.
Now some have indicated the improvement in the football team's defense and special teams' play. So if we can somehow find a little more offensive spark and production our football fortunes may rebound and improve significantly.
As for basketball, I would like for us, in addition to our exciting and productive offense, to improve our defensive intensity and effectiveness. Too often, IMO, our defensive philosophy has been to "let the other team score so we can quickly get up the floor and jack up another three pointer"! Can't tell me that a team that works hard and practices solid defense gives as many points as the Herd does; triple digits on several occasions and 90+ in many other games during the 2016-17 season. When you give up 89 points to a bad team like Eastern KY, an OVC bottom feeder last year, in a not so close loss, you're not playing any defense. Or give up umpteen layups, 3 foot hooks shots and uncontested dunks in absorbing a 25 point or so loss at the CAM to a sub .500 team like UTEP as we did last season, you're not playing any defense. Hell we made their twin tower dudes look like Abdul-Jabbar and Olajuwon! Maybe this season D'Antoni's guards won't constantly get beaten on the first step by opposing guards that starts them on an almost uncontested trip to the Herd's defensive goal, as has all too frequently been done in the past. Maybe, too, other Herd defensive players will finally understand and master the technique of switching opponents in our man to man D. Or, who knows, maybe the coaching staff will finally concede that maybe playing an occasional zone defense is warranted in certain game situations!
So if our basketball team can develop a defense to go with their offense, and if Doc and Legg can come up with a more exciting and productive offense to go along with our defense and special teams, hell, maybe then we can ALL go home HAPPY!!!
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Nobody is unhappy that we've won. In our two games that we've won, we had 2 kickoffs returned for a touchdown and a 70+ yard pick six and the second game their starting QB was gone very early in the game and we scored one planned touchdown from the 4 yardline on three tries in a drive that took several penalties (more luck) to even get to the redzone. These are things that don't happen every game. When the luck runs out and we are forced to rely on our offense to score points and sustain drives to relieve our defense a lot of us are doing the math and not seeing where it's going to come from.
Each game shows us a little more of where we can make due. There's no panic and "doing the math" says the conference teams we play aren't good, and, if we can use what we have built upon and string a few things together, we'll get past most of our conference schedule. In playing some fairly weak competition so far this year, we've had one half out of 6 halves that I would say I felt like the offense was competing, and that was NCState, first half. But there have been glimmers of hope in all the games. I just want to see all those glimmers put together to shine.
The emergence of a real deal RB, a QB that fixed a broken play with his feet and scored, no less, a receiving corps much better than we surmised with an amazing wideout option in Brady, and Willie being healthy and looking good, too, are all things that I have loved this season on offense. Just give me one game where all this clicks for 60 minutes of football and we can say "Boys, we've got an Offense to go with that D and Special Teams." We start dominating on both sides of the ball, the wins and the style points will happen.
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For the offense we have with the plays that we have, if Litton doesn't use the run of the read-option we will not score big points consistently. We may never score big points consistently without defensive and special teams help.
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You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results? Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.
The Bball team won 20 games last year and made it to the CUSA championship game. How hard is it to see that the basketball team, from where it was under TH is improving? DD's team has work to do, true, but, the basketball program is trending upward with improvement each and every season. While the jury is out on whether Doc and co can repeat the success of 2014, with a program that's trending downward.
Doc, in my opinion, has to win at least 6 more games this season if he wants the heat to cool down and Dantoni needs to reach the NIT or the NCAAs this season to keep the heat from being turned up on him.
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I think the underlying issue causing the dissatisfaction with the offense is the lack of a vertical attack, or should I say scant presence of a vertical attack. Litton threw 43 passes to get 223 yards. That's barely over 5 yards per attempt. In case you're not a stats nut, that's a really bad number.
We are a fan base that got spoiled on players like Leftwich throwing deep outs and skinny posts as his bread and butter passes, not three yard screens and 5 yard hitches. When you don't have chunk plays you are forced to be disciplined enough to be able to go 12-16 plays without holding, false starting, or anything else that puts you behind the chains. You can't convert 50% of your 3rd downs, which is normally consider good, you have to convert 60-65% if you want to make it to the endzone more than 2-3 times a game because you are going to face 3-5 3rd downs per drive.
In case you are wondering, the old Marshall of the 90s and early 00s saw the QBs averaging 9+ yards per attempt. If Leftwich or Pennington threw the ball 43 times they were going to have 350 to 450 yards, not 223, even though their completion percentage would be about the same. That's offensive efficiency, moving the ball more yards per play.
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How many seam routes do we see a game... None. These college teams with prolific offenses are stretching the middle of the field Passing plays behind the lbs. we throw in front of the lbs in the middle. We are not using the entire field. Now the ? Is is it Litton or Legg.
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How many seam routes do we see a game... None. These college teams with prolific offenses are stretching the middle of the field Passing plays behind the lbs. we throw in front of the lbs in the middle. We are not using the entire field. Now the ? Is is it Litton or Legg.
Not that cut and dry. The answer is both. You drop Cato in this offense with this supporting cast (provided King is the RB), we win at NC state, this is an undefeated season and we're eating tostitos on jan. 1. The reason being is bco Cato's improvisation and elusiveness. The offense works well with a true option QB. We're doing it with a pro style QB...notch one for Legg. On the flip side, Chase seems scared to tuck and run and make the offense effective and keep the defense honest, not to mention he never looks over the middle to pass. Its always a swing to the sideline or just a backyard sprint and outrun the d and loft it up down the sideline...both notches to Chase. Throw in a coach that recruits best available instead of best for your offense and one that refuses to admit and correct mistakes... The point is there's plenty to go around and you can't single out one person. Its not just Chase, not just Legg, you have to throw in Mirabal for not having a line worth a dime and no depth to boot and John bc he's the master recruiter and the man in charge. The buck stops with him. Changes could be made if he wanted them. After last year, that offense is the same 3 games in and he is either clueless or doesnt care. I'm not talking about firing Legg 3 games into the season either. That ship sailed months ago. I'm talking about a head coach telling his OC to make changes to the O to fit the QB he has. That hasn't happened. And that's a problem.
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The offense works well with a true option QB. We're doing it with a pro style QB...notch one for Legg. The point is there's plenty to go around and you can't single out one person. Its not just Chase, not just Legg, you have to throw in Mirabal for not having a line worth a dime and no depth to boot and John bc he's the master recruiter and the man in charge. The buck stops with him. Changes could be made if he wanted them. After last year, that offense is the same 3 games in and he is either clueless or doesnt care. I'm not talking about firing Legg 3 games into the season either. That ship sailed months ago. I'm talking about a head coach telling his OC to make changes to the O to fit the QB he has. That hasn't happened. And that's a problem.
And, a lot of Herd fans have a problem with reading and hearing the truth! I've gotten half of my "smites" over the last year because I've been very critical of Doc and Hamrick. We were "promised changes" for the entire team. Only 2/3 seemed to have made that change, the offense is (the SOS), acronym for Same Ole Sh*t!
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I think the underlying issue causing the dissatisfaction with the offense is the lack of a vertical attack, or should I say scant presence of a vertical attack. Litton threw 43 passes to get 223 yards. That's barely over 5 yards per attempt. In case you're not a stats nut, that's a really bad number.
We are a fan base that got spoiled on players like Leftwich throwing deep outs and skinny posts as his bread and butter passes, not three yard screens and 5 yard hitches. When you don't have chunk plays you are forced to be disciplined enough to be able to go 12-16 plays without holding, false starting, or anything else that puts you behind the chains. You can't convert 50% of your 3rd downs, which is normally consider good, you have to convert 60-65% if you want to make it to the endzone more than 2-3 times a game because you are going to face 3-5 3rd downs per drive.
In case you are wondering, the old Marshall of the 90s and early 00s saw the QBs averaging 9+ yards per attempt. If Leftwich or Pennington threw the ball 43 times they were going to have 350 to 450 yards, not 223, even though their completion percentage would be about the same. That's offensive efficiency, moving the ball more yards per play.
It's such a bad number that Newton, Howard's QB threw 22 passes against Kent State and only completed 9 and still passed for more yards than Litton.
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Route combos and non use of certain route types have a lot to do with the offensive inefficiency. They certainly don't use the entire field, but they also don't give the QB good options in a progression or make the defense think. Lack of motion, lack of audibles, lack of sequence, lack of play progression all lead to a more predictable offense...and that's just the passing part of the offense. Chase made a great play on first TD last week...but it was an indy play after the original play call broke down. The play call might as well have been "get open on three". Kudos to OL as well for keeping play alive. The 2 biggest offensive plays in first 2 game were pedestrian routes along sideline that Johnson (vs Miami) and Brady (vs NC State) used athleticism etc to turn short gains into very big gains. That's part of the game for sure but relying on those types of plays isn't likely to lead to consistent performance.
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Football has changed the last few years - coaches at all levels (just look k at the NFL)
are now scheming offenses not to turn the ball over, very conservative. Some think
this is why ratings are down in the NFL, it has become boring. In college you are seeing less of a down field attack at to compared to several years ago. It is all about getting athetes in space and let them make a move and get up field in the most conservative way possible. Yes, I would like to see more throws up the middle of the field, but our QB when he misses throws he misses high, and missing high in the middle of the field gets picked off and goes the other way for 6. Also
The most effective receiver down the field is usually a TE and ours has to stay in to block because of issues at tackle.
It is what it is.
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Football has changed the last few years - coaches at all levels (just look k at the NFL)
are now scheming offenses not to turn the ball over, very conservative. Some think
this is why ratings are down in the NFL, it has become boring.
MU ratings might be down because of a boring offense, but NFL ratings are down due to some player disrespect towards the American flag and those who fought & died for the freedoms it represents. They are makes the same mistake ESPN did by becoming a platform for liberal anti-American activism and views. Like some MU fans were turned off by certain things, some NFL fans are turned off by this anthem protest stuff.
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I agree with you quickstrike. I know to many peopl that have been hard core nfl fans and they arent watching near as much as they used too. Its just sickening watching these punks take a knee during the NA. Not the place.
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Attendance and viewership are down at most sporting events these days. Its been an ongoing trend for a few years. People are tired of watching prima donnas and paying inflated tix prices.
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We are definitely seeing a trend change with sports and viewership...I just read that revenues may be down as much as $200 million for the NFL this year due to many factors....the flag protests being number one.
ESPN fails to realize that men were the majority of their viewers and tuned in to catch up on sports...they have shifted dramatically to a very liberal twist on everything and the majority of the on air people being minorities or women...ratings show this as ESPNs cable cutting and ratings are way down.
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ESPN fails to realize that men were the majority of their viewers and tuned in to catch up on sports...they have shifted dramatically to a very liberal twist on everything and the majority of the on air people being minorities or women...ratings show this as ESPNs cable cutting and ratings are way down.
The majority of Marshall's football team is African-American. What does color have to do with anything? This is a great sports board which I find entertaining. Isn't hypocritical to criticize ESPN for a perceived "liberal" bent while this forum could be perceived by someone like me as having an opposite slant? Let's talk sports.
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The majority of Marshall's football team is African-American. What does color have to do with anything? This is a great sports board which I find entertaining. Isn't hypocritical to criticize ESPN for a perceived "liberal" bent while this forum could be perceived by someone like me as having an opposite slant? Let's talk sports.
Thank you, brother! I'd give anything as would the majority of Herd Fans to be on ESPN again like back in the day.
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Route combos and non use of certain route types have a lot to do with the offensive inefficiency. They certainly don't use the entire field, but they also don't give the QB good options in a progression or make the defense think. Lack of motion, lack of audibles, lack of sequence, lack of play progression all lead to a more predictable offense...and that's just the passing part of the offense. Chase made a great play on first TD last week...but it was an indy play after the original play call broke down. The play call might as well have been "get open on three". Kudos to OL as well for keeping play alive. The 2 biggest offensive plays in first 2 game were pedestrian routes along sideline that Johnson (vs Miami) and Brady (vs NC State) used athleticism etc to turn short gains into very big gains. That's part of the game for sure but relying on those types of plays isn't likely to lead to consistent performance.
I agree with this, our route combos are puzzling sometimes. I have seen at least a dozen times this year where we have had 2 WRs within 5 yards of each other and a third WR just a few more yards away from them while leaving entire sections of the field with no pass catcher in them. Effectively allowing defenses to cover with fewer defenders.
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And, a lot of Herd fans have a problem with reading and hearing the truth! I've gotten half of my "smites" over the last year because I've been very critical of Doc and Hamrick. We were "promised changes" for the entire team. Only 2/3 seemed to have made that change, the offense is (the SOS), acronym for Same Ole Sh*t!
Don't sweat the "smite" crap, E-Man. You happen to be, unfortunately, one of the minority of Herd fans who refuse to accept mediocrity as the acceptable standard for Herd athletics. Too many Kelly green wearers look at the sub par performances of MU athletics and the lack of championships among all the schools' teams while in CUSA and just shrug their shoulders and say, "well, that's just the way it is in good ole Huntington, WV".
Contrast that to the mentality out in Lincoln, Nebraska. After about 5 or 6 years, the Nebraska administration just canned their AD. Officials cite lack of performance/progress (i.e., WINS) in football and basketball, mainly for the action. One can also read into that statement the fact that the exceedingly loyal Cornhusker fan base is none too thrilled with the school's lack of success, championships, in those sports since joining the Big 10.
Back in H-town, one can count the Marshall CUSA championships since entering the league on the fingers of a one armed man, with fingers to spare!! What a novel idea Nebraska has: making the Athletic Director ACCOUNTABLE for the success, or lack thereof, of his department's athletic teams. Wonder if the application of such an approach has ever dawned on the powers that be in Huntington and at MU??
Its past time, E, for the MU community at large and its top administration to say that being average or even mediocre is NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE as the norm at MU. Be it in the school's academic disciplines or in its athletic programs, or, frankly, in any other activity of the school. Just fielding a certain number of teams because being a conference member or the NCAA requires MU to field that many teams should NOT be the main factor that Mike Hamrick is evaluated on. How said teams fare on the fields and courts, are they competitive, can they win more than lose, can they garner an expected reasonable number of championships in said sports, these are the things he should be evaluated upon.
Maybe MU officials should take a long, hard look to see if just being average to mediocre in academics and athletics is perhaps a VERY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE SCHOOL'S STAGNANT ENROLLMENT and FAILURE TO GROW for the last couple of decades!!
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Doc in his pre Cincy presser as much as revealed his thoughts on winning and putting up points!
He is more interested in his and Legg's way or nothing else.......He has found his identity .......low expectations! He has screwed himself coaching wise for me totally! Marshall will be better off right now with Tony Petersen if we can get him back from ECU! He is really appreciated there and if their HC keeps their train wreck going he may end up being the next HC at ECU!
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Don't sweat the "smite" crap, E-Man. You happen to be, unfortunately, one of the minority of Herd fans who refuse to accept mediocrity as the acceptable standard for Herd athletics. Too many Kelly green wearers look at the sub par performances of MU athletics and the lack of championships among all the schools teams while in CUSA and just shrug their shoulders and say, "well, that's just the way it is in good ole Huntington, WV".
Contrast that to the mentality out in Lincoln, Nebraska. After about 5 or 6 years, the Nebraska administration just canned their AD. Officials cite lack of performance/progress (i.e., WINS) in football and basketball, mainly for the action. One can also read into that statement the fact that the exceedingly loyal Cornhusker fan base is none too thrilled with the school's lack of success, championships, in those sports since joining the Big 10.
Back in H-town, one can count the Marshall CUSA championships since entering the league on the fingers of a one armed man, with fingers to spare!! What a novel idea Nebraska has: making the Athletic Director ACCOUNTABLE for the success, or lack thereof, of his department's athletic teams. Wonder if the application of such an approach has ever dawned on the powers that be in Huntington and at MU??
Its past time, E, for the MU community at large and its top administration to say that being average or even mediocre is NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE as the norm at MU. Be it in the school's academic disciplines or in its athletic programs, or, frankly, in any other activity of the school. Just fielding a certain number of teams because being a conference member or the NCAA requires MU to field that many teams should NOT be the main factor that Mike Hamrick is evaluated on. How said teams fare on the fields and courts, are they competitive, can they win more than lose, can they garner an expected reasonable number of championships in said sports, these are the things he should be evaluated upon.
Maybe MU officials should take a long, hard look to see if just being average to mediocre in academics and athletics is perhaps a VERY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE SCHOOL'S STAGNANT ENROLLMENT and FAILURE TO GROW for the last couple of decades!!
Well said Coal and agree 100%
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Don't sweat the "smite" crap, E-Man. You happen to be, unfortunately, one of the minority of Herd fans who refuse to accept mediocrity as the acceptable standard for Herd athletics. Too many Kelly green wearers look at the sub par performances of MU athletics and the lack of championships among all the schools teams while in CUSA and just shrug their shoulders and say, "well, that's just the way it is in good ole Huntington, WV".
Contrast that to the mentality out in Lincoln, Nebraska. After about 5 or 6 years, the Nebraska administration just canned their AD. Officials cite lack of performance/progress (i.e., WINS) in football and basketball, mainly for the action. One can also read into that statement the fact that the exceedingly loyal Cornhusker fan base is none too thrilled with the school's lack of success, championships, in those sports since joining the Big 10.
Back in H-town, one can count the Marshall CUSA championships since entering the league on the fingers of a one armed man, with fingers to spare!! What a novel idea Nebraska has: making the Athletic Director ACCOUNTABLE for the success, or lack thereof, of his department's athletic teams. Wonder if the application of such an approach has ever dawned on the powers that be in Huntington and at MU??
Its past time, E, for the MU community at large and its top administration to say that being average or even mediocre is NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE as the norm at MU. Be it in the school's academic disciplines or in its athletic programs, or, frankly, in any other activity of the school. Just fielding a certain number of teams because being a conference member or the NCAA requires MU to field that many teams should NOT be the main factor that Mike Hamrick is evaluated on. How said teams fare on the fields and courts, are they competitive, can they win more than lose, can they garner an expected reasonable number of championships in said sports, these are the things he should be evaluated upon.
Maybe MU officials should take a long, hard look to see if just being average to mediocre in academics and athletics is perhaps a VERY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE SCHOOL'S STAGNANT ENROLLMENT and FAILURE TO GROW for the last couple of decades!!
This^ another great post, not because you're defending me, but what you said about Nebraska being "proactive" and not accepting (a mediocre program). They are doing it the right way starting with the athletic director and working their way down.
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You BB first guys are all over Doc, the FB offense, FB coaching, FB expectations, etc., yet give BB and DD a pass for all of the above. When are you going to expect a BB program that gets real results? Its always wait until next year. The time is now for FB and BB. I want BOTH to win and, personally, I'm tired of waiting.
I respect your posts jst, but DD has literally improved every single season, and our team played for a title with much less raw talent than others in our league. That man will bring us an NCAA tourney appearance in the next couple years. He is getting the most out of players. He makes bad players averagr, average players good, good players great, and that is how you can really tell who is a good coach and who isn't.
Doc has pretty good talent all over the field, and not many times, have i seen a player develop into a better player, while the season progresses, or year to year. he has however, demonstrated an innate ability to mis-judge talent, and put players into dog houses, and a very strong ability to not be able to adapt to any situation. You know, its ok for a HC to not be an expert in every field, but he does need to be the CEO and put people who can do a good job around him. I don't care if he ever attends a meeting or watches a minute of film if he hires the people that can get it done, and helps find the players to get it done. thats his ultimate job. I gave him credit when he got rid of Rippon because it needed to be done. It has been 10000% clear that Legg is holding us back before Cato, and after Cato, even at times during Cato's tenure. Doc has failed to address that need, and that is unacceptable. Any business owner or leader knows, when someone continually fails to do their job, changes must be made to address the issue. Doc refuses to do so with Legg. I truly believe if he was gone, we would see a much higher level of support and excitement around the football program. May even be 3-0 right now with an ACC win.
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Us basketball guys knows real coaching when we see it. Ill bet you can ask anybody that goes to bb practice that dd gets every ounce of talent out of his guys. And his players get better and better and better. I dont care if it takes another year or 5 years. As long as dd players and teams continue to get better and grow, im happy. Because dd teams are fun to watch and he knows the x's and o's front and back and the best "teacher" i have ever seen. When he crashes and burns like 10-20 (like football did last year 3-9) after he has already built his program let me know!!!!!
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Us basketball guys knows real coaching when we see it. Ill bet you can ask anybody that goes to bb practice that dd gets every ounce of talent out of his guys. And his players get better and better and better. I dont care if it takes another year or 5 years. As long as dd players and teams continue to get better and grow, im happy. Because dd teams are fun to watch and he knows the x's and o's front and back and the best "teacher" i have ever seen. When he crashes and burns like 10-20 (like football did last year 3-9) after he has already built his program let me know!!!!!
At the risk of further hijacking this thread, I'll add this: In general the goal of higher ed is to provide the opportunity for each student maximize whatever potential that the student brings. DD understands this.