Topic: THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!

[Mako]

Can you believe this crap??????????  The NFL will be playing at least one game every week next year on MONDAY NIGHTS!!!!  And, some teams will be on even more than one Monday night.  That means if I want to watch my team this week, I've got to take two days off from work.  They don't care about the fans at all!!!!!  This is all about television and it sucks!!!!!!!!

[bbcard1]

but it is a lot easier to say it when you're sitting less than an hour from the Joan.  

At least 25,000 in attendance over the two games.  At least 500 season tickets. Probably half a million dollars in cash money swing. Hundreds of visitors, not just from K-State but also from William and Mary. And thousands of out of town Herd fans and their families who can't attend the first two games.  That's what our first two games on Thursday will cost us.  Think about that while you take the forty-five minute trip from Nitro.

[HerdChemist89]

Can you believe this crap??????????  The NFL will be playing at least one game every week next year on MONDAY NIGHTS!!!!  And, some teams will be on even more than one Monday night.  That means if I want to watch my team this week, I've got to take two days off from work.  They don't care about the fans at all!!!!!  This is all about television and it sucks!!!!!!!!

LOL !   :wink:

I sorta agree.

There are many other programs out there that are more than glad to play on Thursday Nights. Programs like VT, Louisville, FSU, WVU, South Carolina.

Really, one or two Thursdays a year won't hurt us. Two is pushing it though.

People need to chill out. Also many of us are looking to upgrade our season ticket location, so I if you do pull out because we scheduled a Thursday game leave us a good spot.

GO HERD

[bbcard1]

We are a cash-strapped program.  This will help us stay that way.

If the first two games are move to thursday, the cost is pretty easy to count:  It will cost at least 10,000 in attendance to the William and Mary game.  Let's say they pay $15 per ticket, that's $150,000.  Let's say conservatively each fan buys 5 worth of concessions and or a program (which is $6, but we'll use the $5) that's $200,000 on the William & Mary game.

Lets say it costs us the same at the K-State game...there's another $200K. Plus it will cost us the opportunity to finally shut up the critics that we've never had a sellout at the Joan.

OK, we're very conservatively at $400K.   How many season tickets will we not sell because of the move. I'd say 500 is a very low-ball number.  I personally will buy two endzone season tickets instead of four mid-range  tickets because of the schedule.  But lets say we're sealing with an average of $100 per season ticket.  Now you're looking at $450,000.

Next add in the fact that this will preclude most fans from W&M coming.   I think W&M would bring as many fans as any MAC team ever to visit Marshall were the game played on Saturday.  It will probalby more than knock off half the fans who would come from Huntington from K-State.  The effect of this is that these games do less  for  the economy of the state and the tourism for the city of Huntington than they could... very literally millions of dollars less.  This is real money, not the conceptual money people tell us that is the value television delivers.

Oh, and how exactly are we going to sell mini-packages now?

What kind of long-term, meat in the seats effect is this going to have.   It is a missed opportunity, that's what.  

What's more, there will be residual effects in attendance  that will hamper every game  this season.  

A lot of fans are getting confused that this is some sort of test of their personal loyalty.   It's not.  It's about what's right for the program and there is a very real debate that should be had...loudly...in the ultimate interest of  the program and the growth of the program.

Do you guys think  I'm off on my math?  I will always make a MU game when it is not at the cost of my time with my family or my obligations.  But there is more than one way to look at this.

[Blade]

There are worse times to play in Huntington.  Last year's Troy game was insufferable sitting in the East stands on a Saturday afternoon.

As far as attendance?  I'd say that 90% of Marshall's attendance comes from within a 100 mile radius.

Financially, it is more costly for Marshall to play on:

- Wednesday night (church night)
- Friday night (HS football night)
- Saturday afternoon in September(work, prep soccer, peewee sports)

Die hards can actually make a 4-hour trip to the game and back with as little as 1/2 day vacation if they don't mind the drive.

I try not to underestimate the value of our loyal fans that have long distances to travel but let's not overestimate their net worth to the attendance revenues.

[bbcard1]

I've pretty well spelled out what I think their net worth is.

I don't think anyone could argue that I am a die-hard fan.  Frankly I'm sick of everytime we play a team that can fog a mirror, they move it to a week night so we can be on ESPN2.   I'm not going to the first two games (I may relent on KState) if they are on Thursday. I love nothing better than watching the game with my Dad and my son.  My Dad is  going to stay at home and watch it on television and I cannot yank my kid out of school to go to a football game. It is very easy for you to say that most fans can make a four hour drive when you don't have to do it.  It is very easy to say that they can take vacation when you don't have to do it.  Actually a 7:00 game does not end in time for one to drive back to wherever they came from if it is four hours away and allow one enough sleep to be productive the following day.

When you guys continue to hear the criticism that we have never sold out a game at the Joan, you'll know why.  

This is a sore subject with me.  It should be a sore subject will all the true beleivers who want to see the program grow.

[Blade]

The term "die-hard" is relative.  In the manner I addressed it, it meant avid enough to make the trek (which can be done).  Perhaps I should have said crazy enough because I wouldn't make that trip today.  20 years ago, maybe.

As for the TV games, I'm afraid you better get used to it.  TV drives CFB and I don't see it changing in the near future.  As a matter of fact, I see it getting worse now that we are in CUSA with a bigger ESPN contract.

You will be sorely missed, as will all fans that cannot make the game.  Unfortunately, you are in an overwhelming minority.  The old adage "you can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time"  carries weight here, I believe.

Barry, I can sympathize with you.  I have only been within one hour of Huntington 8 of the 28 years since I was at Marshall.  I know how tough it is on out-of-staters to make Saturday games, let alone one at mid-week.  

However, in the long stint where I lived in other parts of the country, not once did I feel Marshall made a decision to directly inconvenience me personally.  I always thought the ones in charge tried to do what was best for Marshall.  Certainly they've made some mistakes but for the most part, you can't question their track record.  Going from little or no fan support in  the mid to late 70's to 26K is a great achievement.

Do you really believe we've never sold out the Joan because of Marshall's ill treatment of out-of-staters?  Improved schedule and winning has much more impact, imo.  That is why I said that I thought you were over-valuing the impact of long distance fans.  

Rarely do I see fans that have family or job commitments that live out of state that can say they make every home game, unless they live inside the Saturday fringe (4-6 hours away).  

A Thursday game has basically put you in the same category as our Florida fans.  It'll take 1-2 vacation days to visit the Joan.

I know you're sensitive about the subject but we have to realistically ask ourselves which is better for Marshall.  If our success hinges on people 4 hours away to fill our stadium, I'm afraid we're going to fail.

[Mako]

I don't want to hear aobut how easy it is for me to make Saturday games because of where I live.  There are always Saturday games I can't make because of National Guard duty.  Indeed, two years ago, I was only able to make one home game.  Still, I have never considered giving up my season tickets.  I buy these tickets to support Marshall and I make it to the games I can.  Furthermore, Blade is right about advanced planning.

This year, my wife decided that she wanted to attend several of Marshall's away games - including the Akron game that would be played on Friday night.  When she made that decision, she put in for vacation on those days.  Although being self-employed now I don't have to ask for vacation, when I worked for the state, I always put in for 1/2 a day of vacation on days when Marshall had weeknight games.  Sometimes, I just went ahead and put in for 2 days and made it a long weekend.  My point is that the weeknight games can be an inconvenience but if you want to make them, you just plan far enough in advance for it.

Why doesn't Virginia Tech have any problems selling out a Thursday night game?  It's not like Blacksburg is a booming metropolis.  Why don't NFL teams in the east have any problems selling out Monday night games when the games won't be over until after midnight?  It's because folks see these things on the schedule and plan for it.  

More importantly, weeknight games are absolutely vital for our continued success.  There is not one single recruit coming to Division I-A that doesn't dream of the NFL.  They know damned well that playing in front of a national television audience enhances those prospects.  What do you want to say to them?  "Come to Marshall and you will never be on TV because we refuse to play weeknight games?"  That is a recipie for long term failure and I'm willing to bet you won't make 6 hour treks to see 2-9 teams.  And, without quality recruits, that's where a program ends up.  The weeknight games probably cost us about 1,500-2,000 in terms of attendance but 2-9 seasons will cost us 10,000.  

Last but not least, weeknight games are the new reality of college football unless you're in the SEC or Big 12.  As one of my former commanders used to say when we were given a lousy mission, "it ain't right, it ain't wrong, it just is."

[bbcard1]

----
If our success hinges on people 4 hours away to fill our stadium, I'm afraid we're going to fail.
----

Our success depends on being able to draw fans from a regional base.   If I'm not mistaken, we would have to draw every man, woman and child from Huntington to fill the Joan.  I may not be drawing fans from four hours away, but making things easier for out of towners simply makes sense.

Once again do not confuse the issue of who is the biggest fan with what is best for the program.  I know Miami O fans and, for that matter Washington & Lee and Guilford fans that are as adamant about their team as the biggest Marshall fan.   Drawing fans who are on the periery into a deeper relationship with the school is the key to increasing butts in seats.

Yeah, I really beleive that television and Thursday nights HAS to combine to hold down attendance.  Look at a game like Akron two years ago. We have about 32 K for a bum school on a Saturday.  If we move games like Miami from Thursday to Saturday, you not only get out of towners,  but the few hundred folks who would come if they did not prefer to sit at home were they not able to watch the game.  

Television is one component of growing a program, but not the only necessary ingredient.  We are making it our staple while  selling out the local merchants and out of town fans in the process.  There are misconcpetions about television I'd love  to talk about but would prefer not to post...drop me an e-mail before the Charleston practice...btw, I'm not Barry.

[Mako]

There are misconcpetions about television I'd love to talk about but would prefer not to post

I would be interested to see whether it's just your opinion or whether you have actual data to back it up.  Folks "in the know" such as GreenSteve and DShoe that make their living knowing these things have pointed to replicatable, scientific studies showing no statistically significant correlation between television and attendance.  Maybe you have data of which they or I am not aware.

[DJdaHERDfan]

Had the Kansas St game been on a Saturday, MU sells out. jmo

On thursday night, KSU/MU will draw about 32k

[jstherd]

You guys can rationalize all you want, but Thursday night games screw the out of town fans. And, its easy for you people who live on the 50 yard line. Big deal for you.

Marshall could lose $100,000 for a Thursday night K-State game, i.e., 5,000 fans at $20 a pop. What will ESPN pay us. I'll bet you nothing. If you have three Thursday night games, which is likely, you'll lose season ticket sales. You have to know that one of our home CUSA games will be during the week. That's just the way it is in CUSA.

Marshall is NOT a FAN FRIEBDLY school. I haven't made up my mind on what I'll do, but I'm seriously considering giving up my four chairback seats and the donation that goes with them. I hate to do that, but the week night games are becoming very costly to me and my family. My grandson that travels with me would have to miss a day of school. THAT, my good friends, is NOT going to happen. Why take all of that away from the fans?

[Blade]

Our success depends on being able to draw fans from a regional base. If I'm not mistaken, we would have to draw every man, woman and child from Huntington to fill the Joan. I may not be drawing fans from four hours away, but making things easier for out of towners simply makes sense.

A regional basis could be considered our marketing area, which is 645,000 people in Ashland, Ironton, Portsmoth, Huntington and Charleston.  More than enough to fill the Joan 15 times over.

Once again do not confuse the issue of who is the biggest fan with what is best for the program.

Not once in this conversation have I failed to recognize that fact.  Whom are you addressing?

Yeah, I really beleive that television and Thursday nights HAS to combine to hold down attendance.

TV is an age old debate on this site.  Let's stick to out-of-towners impact on attendance.  That was the issue.  But if what you say is true, why was the record attendance at Marshall Stadium played on a Monday night and shown on ESPN?

Television is one component of growing a program, but not the only necessary ingredient. We are making it our staple while selling out the local merchants and out of town fans in the process.

A bit dramatic, don't ya think?  :wink:   Making your case on this statement will be in vain if you are trying to convince any AD in Division IA.  TV accounts for the bulk of revenues for ALL division 1A programs.  Those that do not have it, are supported by the state.

There are misconcpetions about television I'd love to talk about but would prefer not to post...drop me an e-mail before the Charleston practice...

I'll allow you and MAKO spar this one.  :lol:

btw, I'm not Barry.

I appoligize.  I mistook you for BarryB, a well-known poster and one that I respect a great deal.  It was not a slam by any means.  We've met so you know I didn't mean any harm.  Sorry I mixed you two guys up.   :oops:

[HerdZone]

This could be settled by starting to black out the games, if the ppl who are in Huntington who sit and watch the games on TV can't see the games. Then they sooner or later realize they have to come to the game.

[bbcard1]

You're one of my favorite debaters.  You go good and hard on any subject, regardless of any attachment to logic.  Damn, baby, I love to watch you go whether I agree or not.

I don't think there's much I've stated that's strictly opinion and there are some seriously interesting numbers and considerations when you look at television and where the costs are absorbed.

And there is no guarantee USM will not ALSO be moved to a week night.

Once again, this is not about what's best for BBCARD...it's about what's best for the program. Moving one game...even K-State would be fine. But we are essentially losing two games.   Hell, no I don't like it personally, but i don't like it for the program either.

BTW, I own an ad agency and am familiar with the numbers television generates.  We are trading hard benefits (money in our program) for soft benefits (people who are exposed to our program). Those things are both beneficial, but you need both.  

ESPN will make some payment to the school, but it wil not approach the lost revenue and the impact.  Maybe a few  of the local fans can go down to pullman square and buy a book or something.  Shouldn't be a lot of out-of-towners to get in your way.

[Photo by]

One thing about being on TeeVee regardless of the night is what it does for recruiting. Those HS kids love to see the team they are going to play for on the tube.

[luvherd]

I live in Northern VA - if it is a big game, Kansas State for example, I'll be there. Made the Ohio State game, Georgia, Miami Oh and the bowl game. I also made smaller games like Troy and Central Florida.

Plan to make most if not all home games as well as Memphis and Va Tech next year.

My kids are raised which makes it easier but you go to support the schedule - whatever it is!

[HerdZone]

One thing about being on TeeVee regardless of the night is what it does for recruiting. Those HS kids love to see the team they are going to play for on the tube.

You black the game out for a 150 mile radius until 1 of 2 things happens. 1 Its a sell out which is great or 2 ESPN/ESPN2 happens to pick the game up. Recruits may like to see that you play on TV, but the same thing could have been said 15 yrs ago when we were being tape delayed at 11:30 on WSAZ and thought it was great exposier. If we want to fill the stands up we are going to have to black the games out. If Tenn. Florida, F. ST. didn't first black games out would they sell their stadiums out or would 20% of their fans set at home and watch it Free. Make the choice.

[Blade]

BBCard - Thanks (I think).  Not certain how illogical my stance is though.

1.  Marshall will play games on weeknights to gain national exposure.

2.  We will play more weekday games due to our new conference affilliation.

3. Two-thirds (67.4%) of our alumni population live within realistic driving distance for a weekday game.  Not mentioning fandom (those that favor Marshall that never attended, which are mostly local).  See Map

4.  Even under Neilson, our TV Market is 508,750, which is more than enough to support a 38K sellout.  TV Markets

5.  Our weekday games haven't been lacking for fans.  As a matter of fact, they average well above our season average.  

2002  UCF 32,900
2002  MofO 26851
2003  Toledo 31511
2004  Miami  27229

*note*  I left out the Ohio game (19911) because it was the Friday after Thanksgiving (students gone and a holiday).  I didn't feel it was relative to the KSU game AND it could be attended by our long distant fans.

6.  As illogical as I may seem, Marshall University Admin appears to agree.  Can they be illogical?  Yes but I do give the advantage to those with the facts when debating a somewhat speculative subject.  :wink:

Where I agree:
-  I prefer Saturday games
-  I prefer to see all the happy faces of our out-of-town alumni
-  I would like to have the kind of program that could afford to say no to weekday games
-  I would like be in the SEC or ACC
-  I would like to win the NC every year

I guess I got carried away on my "wish" list   8)

[lexkyherdfan]

Blade,

I believe most Herd fans don't mind one game on a weeknight or even one on Thursday and one of Friday.  I believe what most people don't like is the fact that the first 2 will be played on Thursday night and most likely the USM game will be on a weeknight.  I don't know what you consider a realistic drive but for an Alum that has kids, it is hard to make it two weeks in a row.  If MU really wanted to they could petition the NCAA to play the opener a week earlier to have it on Saturday.  I believe Miami, OH did just that this past season.

I personally know individuals that leave 3+ hrs away that were planning on buying season tickets for the first time this year but may not if half the games are on weeknights.  I believe if half the games are on weeknights our season ticket base will not increase like everybody hopes.  I know you mentioned how our weeknight games attendance hasn't been that bad and I agree but everytime we have had a "big" game everybody complaines about nobody being there.   I believe if either of the Miami games as well as the UCF game was on Saturday more than 35K would have been there.  

I just hope the same individuals (not you) that are basically ripping someone a new backside don't complain when attendance isn't what they expect when the games come and we are around 30K.    

That being said, I don't like the home opener on Thursday since I haven't missed one since 1991 and can't make it this year.  I already planned on making it for the KSU game since I expected it to get moved.  The fortunate thing for me is I am only 2 hours away so I can drive up and back the same night.  The reason I can't make it to the home opener is my job requires me to work OT during the first three work days of the month.  Sept. 1st is first WD and I will be working until about 7.  That is the life in Industry accounting.  We have to close the books so I have to work.  If the USM game falls the same way, I will once again have to miss.

I am still getting at least 2 season tickets and maintaining my BG green donation.  I was considering getting 4 but if half the games are on weeknights then I will only keep the 2 I get.  I will use money saved from my trips to Huntington and the two additional tickets to go to road games that I was not planning on attending.  It is hard to justify tickets that I really don't need to my wife a non-MU grad.

[bbcard1]

I would recommend all who have concerns similar to mine to contact the administration.

[Blade]

the effect weekday games have on our out-of-state alums.  As a matter of fact, I'm quite sympathetic having been one for nearly two decades.

Originally, I just questioned the negative impact weekday games had on the program.  I don't think weekday games will be the downfall of our program, nor do I believe it will hinder us from prospering.  How much it retards our progress remains to be seen.

I know how sensitive BBCard is about this subject and I tried to make it clear that I understood his complaint.

It's inconvenient.  It isolates some solid alums and fans.  It hampers even locals that have jobs where they are forced to work on certain weekdays.  

How much of an impact it has on the economy, attendance, program, budget, revenues, etc...  is still the source of my debate.  I hope you all understand.

[Mako]

People complaining about weeknight college games remind me of folks who said television was just a fad, rock and roll would die out soon in favor of "good music" and computers would never be sitting in the homes of the average consumer.  Folks, everything in the world changes and evolves over time.  The BCS conferences have Saturdays locked up so if you ever want national television exposure, playing on a weeknight is your only option.  Oh yeah.  Did I mention that people drive too fast on them freeways?

[bbcard1]

This is not about weeknight football.  This is about this program, these games, this time.  And it is probalby not a good decision at this time for these games, in my opinion.

Mako, is it not possible that the people who are banking almost exclusively on mid-week football to grow their programs are the same kind of folks who invested in dotcoms in the 90s?  Why do those of us who want to see our team and program occassionally exposed to the most possible paying customers in a live venue have to be compared to the people who don't beleive in computers (such as the one I am using to exchange ideas with you at this moment?)

[herdseasprayone5]

A few points.
1. I do not live in Nitro, my drive to see the Herd is 16 hours roundtrip. I put 6200 miles on my auto this fall following MU football, which likely tells you how dumb I am. It also should tell you I am no fair weather fan.
2. I said if MU joined CUSA I would increase my giving 40%, which I and every member of our group did.
3. I have held bball season tickets for 20+ years though I am rarely able to attend a game. I do this as a way to show support for the athletic dept.  
I am sure there are many fans such as myself who have done these type things for years. I applaud the local people who support the teams in every way possible, however, the local market is saturated and as bbcard and lexkyfan suggest, you must grow the base beyond the tristate.
I will bet those giving the back of their hand to long distance travelers will be the first to complain about sagging season ticket sales, poor attendance, etc. when these things happen.
Should the Kstate game be moved to Thursday I will no longer purchase season tickets, not as a protest, but simply because it no longer makes sense to do so.